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Post by Jacarandagirl on Dec 16, 2013 12:24:18 GMT -8
Wow, I'm very impressed with your conviction and commitment to yourself. Amazing! When I am triggered into love addiction I don't behave rationally at all...well, hardly at all. If you can keep up your self-monitoring like this and stay sane you are in for a much better experience of relating. Good luck. I think I am trying to develop my trust in a higher power to do what you are doing. The only way I can find what is right and true for me in amongst all the craziness.
Also- hilarious! Your first paragraph on your mind state. Thanks for that!
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Post by CodepNomore on Dec 18, 2013 11:31:17 GMT -8
I admire your transparency and how you keep your head in all situations.
I think obsession is a part of being a LA. I would also fall into that unless I keep watch over me and guard my mind. I know the painful consequence of obsession and how it brought me down to insanity and one degrading or embarrassing act after another. Therefore, reminding myself that this would only hurt or "punish me" in the long run sets me free from obsessing.
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Post by CodepNomore on Dec 20, 2013 7:23:12 GMT -8
Kudos to you, for it seems you are still managing yourself well.
However, for me to entertain obsessive thought is similar to inviting love addiction to overpower me. Few months ago, I was obsessing over someone from “light to moderate”. Until one day, I just started acting out. The result is that fantasy became a nightmare. That very thing and/or person that I thought would give me pleasure ended giving me pain, humiliation, and insanity. It was an awful consequence so much so that it is now among my main bottom-line behaviour: never entertain an obsessive thought/fantasy again unless I want the same result from LA. I would not underestimate the power of seemingly harmless obsessive thought anymore. I have to be vigilant daily. Recovery work is an everyday thing. I am just glad that my slip was a short-lived slip but I learned a lot from it and have moved on.
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Post by CodepNomore on Dec 27, 2013 0:32:17 GMT -8
No obsessing going on. The 2.5 weeks away from this guy was good and rational thought took over. I also brought a couple of longer-term friends into the mix (including a single, attractive, female friend of mine with NO jealousy, competitiveness or possessiveness creeping up on my end) and it was just a really nice day. Nothing sexy to report and I suppose that's good. That is wonderful. I think recovery is the new sexiness and having that kind of stability and sensibility is sexy. That is good for you that you were able to manage to bring into the mix a female friend who is “single, attractive, with no jealousy, competitiveness or possessiveness creeping up on your end.” That means you are confident and secure enough that nobody makes you feel intimidated or insecure. Keep it up.
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Post by Havefaith on Dec 28, 2013 9:05:48 GMT -8
The one thing that works for me in complex situations is to (1) lose the fairy tale mindset and (2) embrace reality. As a love/romance/intrigue/drama addict, I must accept reality and do so with the grace of an adult. Easy for me to say -- tough for me to do. But I'm working on it (intense psychodynamic therapy), because anything less pulls me back into the dysfunctional world of Love Addiction...
HaveFaith
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Post by requin on Dec 28, 2013 10:44:38 GMT -8
Could the guy you like be gay?
And/or involved w/ someone?
All the signs are there that he should be asking you out, but he's not. That's not right, LA or no LA. Something is going on. Are you absolutely averse to asking him for coffee or something (alone)? I would...but that's me. If you two were alone to talk you might get the story as to why he's not making any moves.
Just some thoughts.
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Post by LovelyJune on Dec 29, 2013 5:00:26 GMT -8
You're so smart Paisley, and you know so much about recovery. But you need to start following your own advice. People don't have to be gay or taken to not be interested in us romantically. They may simply not be interested. Period. It could be the way we communicate, what we look like. Who knows! It's not personal. Think back to some guy that may have been interested in you and while there may have been nothing wrong with him, you simply were not interested. The same goes in reverse and while this is a hard lesson to learn (that we can be rejected for virtually no apparent reason), it's an important one to learn and one that teaches that romance between two people is truly out of our control. You could smile, flirt, push things along all you want. But if someone is not interested, it's not going to happen the way you want.
Before I met D, I depended on the word "organic." I wanted things in my life to happen organically. No more tugging at the roots to make the flowers grow faster. I had finally learned that there was NOTHING I could do to convince someone of my worth or my beauty, and when I realized that, the obsession melted away (with lots of brain work, that is).
But there's something else I want to draw your attention to. You wrote:
I want to relate to you my own learning experience: all my life I adored artists and writers. I fancied myself both. I hung around creative people. But when I was older, had kids and a minivan and had to take care of my home, my priorities were very different. Even though I still wanted to be part of the art world, and still was very attracted to artists and musicians, I found them to be grossly out of sync with who I "really" was. And while they were initially attracted to the artist within me, they had difficulty accepting the kids, the minivan, and the soccer mom that I really was. When the relationship didn't work out I was hugely frustrated. I didn't want to be a soccer mom!!!! I wanted to be an artist!!! I wanted artistic people in my life!!!
But this kind of wishful thinking was also fantasy. Yes, I was creative, but I was also a family girl. I was hugely responsible and stable. Most of the creative types I was interested in were not family guys, had no kids, and were not very stable. DO you see where I am going with this?
My "ideal" man (the creative artist type) didn't actually mesh with who I "really" was and it took A LOT of pain and anguish to accept who I really was and stop pursuing who I wanted to be in my ideal world. Once I did that, I had a much clearer picture of who I was. And by having that knowledge it allowed me to open my circle a little wider to certain men who I would have normally kept out: responsible, stable, business suit wearing family men with kids of their own. And once I was with this new type of man, I soon learned that the relationship actually WORKED. It wasn't a struggle.
So, I know you like "lively, creative people" but make sure you know who you are deep down inside before you create an ideal and try to be that ideal. And by the way, my "responsible, stable, business suit wearing family guy with kids of his own" just happens to play guitar and love art and adore creative women. But those latter qualities are secondary to his other qualities that many of my ex-bfs (who were artists or musicians) never had.
Know thyself.
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Post by CodepNomore on Dec 29, 2013 6:31:50 GMT -8
I think it is good to have different views on this matter. I completely agree with LovelyJune but I would not eliminate the idea that he might be gay too.
This is another view that you may want to consider too. I know some men who are just taking their time because they do not want to make mistakes. Especially if they just came from a relationship that did not work out. Who knows if he is just plain busy with his work or has different priorities at this time? It could also be that he is like my spiritual friend, who has to pray and wait on God before making any move.
I had a fiancé before who was thought to be gay too because it took him a very long while before he finally asked me out. Nevertheless, he is one of the best men I have known.
Please take it easy. It is too early to ‘judge’ him and his actions. Be kind to yourself, stop the obsession and/or overanalyzing. Give yourself a break. Only time can tell.
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Post by LovelyJune on Dec 29, 2013 8:13:42 GMT -8
Remember this important lesson too: men who dive into a relationship immediately are not what I would call a healthy catch. It's a red flag. It's the same pattern you, as a love addict, may have had in the past and it never led to anything remotely healthy. When D and I first started dating, I was SHOCKED that he didn't call every day or profess his love after certain dates. But I had to keep reminding myself that taking it slow was a much healthier approach. I wasn't used to it. It was new to me. It felt awkward. Eventually, I learned to play the "game" a different, healthier way.
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Post by LovelyJune on Dec 29, 2013 8:17:15 GMT -8
I just read Codepnomore's post. And she's spot on. He could be seasoned and not want to dive in too quickly. A good sign. He could also be gay! He could also be avoidant! Who knows. Stop GUESSING. The guessing and obsessing is your love addiction occupying your brain. Let it go. Like you said, turn it over to the Universe. Go find something healthy to do after reading this post and lose yourself in yourself
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Post by Jacarandagirl on Dec 30, 2013 13:51:41 GMT -8
I'm reading and wondering about this level of obsession and what it does to my/your/our ability to be able to be judicious once actually dating. Because if I was in this situation, and I am ike this every time I meet someone who I'm smitten by too, I am not going to be able to stop myself jumping into bed with them if the opportunity arises, which means my ability to be careful about getting hooked before I know more about them is shot down in flames right there.
I'm thinking fellowship meetings could help. Oh and that reminds me- if I truly hand over to a higher power, there's nothing to worry about.
Ah. That's it.
And so truly handing over would look like...
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Post by LovelyJune on Dec 31, 2013 4:43:49 GMT -8
Also, when you are with the right partner and he is healthy and has respect for you you could set a goal: Let's not have sex for the next three month and just get to know each other. WHen a new couple sets a goal together YOU are able to see what kind of personality you are dealing with, depending on whether the goal is achieved or not.
Believe me, I most likely would have had sex quickly with D, even though I wanted to (logically) wait. So, we agreed to set this goal and we pretty much made it by a day or two to wait 3 months. It was my very first exercise in working towards a goal with a healthy person and while it was emotionally difficult, it was a success and taught me to learn to defer gratification.
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Post by CodepNomore on Dec 31, 2013 6:47:08 GMT -8
(If I get it right...) He has not even asked for her contact number, so I do not think it would be an issue with this kind of a guy.
That is amazing LovelyJune.
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Post by requin on Dec 31, 2013 7:15:09 GMT -8
In my opinion 3 months is too much. If you can go that long, and both want to, all the more power to you. I think it also depends too on your age. When I met my current guy we both agreed w/ didn't want to jump in the sack right away. In the past both of us might have. We agreed to wait but we didn't wait very long! We are both in our 50s. I do not regret that we didn't wait months to be intimate. We've been together over 7 months now and it is going amazingly well.
So I think it's a very personal decision for any couple to decide how long to wait before being intimate; I don't think there's any right or wrong timeframe. I think what matters more is knowing the mindset of both people in the relationship, and that part can be quite tricky. It has to be understood that sex is not the only end goal etc. Yes it can be hard to tell sometimes but sometimes it is possible to know that's not all someone is after. My guy and I both knew we were looking for a real relationship, that we'd both been alone a long time, and are not players. We both knew when we became intimate it would mean something and it did and has, despite not waiting months to go there.
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Post by LovelyJune on Jan 1, 2014 5:16:57 GMT -8
I read an article years ago that women release hormones during sex which make them feel "attached" to their partner. Men do not release the same hormones and after having sex, they are not always invested in the relationship like women are. This is VERY good information to know for a love addict who is invested at the first "hello!" We need to take extra precautions. ANd the reason to wait is not always to prove that sex is not the end goal. There is another extremely valid reason to wait: WHat's the hurry??? If you are embarking upon a relationship with the love of your life, you apparently have until the end of time to make love, right? So, waiting 3 months in the big scheme of things is a ridiculously small price to pay. And while I absolutely agree with requin, that choosing to wait or not is a personal decision, you need to really pull out all your logic and make it a personal decision, instead of an emotional, love addict, immediate gratification decision. If you can tell the difference between the two then good for you. But if you cannot do that yet…WAIT as long as possible. This buys you more time to see what kind of character you are dealing with. A very sage therapist of mine told me once that it takes about TWO YEARS to really get to know someone and that you should not move in or make any lifelong commitment to someone (marriage) before that time. I always thought that was insane advice and that I had instincts about people's characters and could tell right off the bat if they were good for me or not. Bah! I was so wrong. It takes a good 2-3 years to really know someone. ANd even then they can surprise you. No one ever regretted taking their time unless it meant jumping out of a burning building
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Post by Jacarandagirl on Jan 1, 2014 13:35:47 GMT -8
And so truly handing over would look like... I want to try to answer my own question- how does it look when I truly hand over what happens with a potential new partner to a benevolent higher power? What would that look like in reality? Because I can do a lot of lip service to believing in a higher power. I intellectually understand it and believe it a bit but go on acting as if I am in control and need to be making all the big, important decisions, like whether or not I go to bed with someone new or whether it's worth waiting. And my primary reason for waiting (next time) is that my judgment gets foggy once we're sexual. I miss red flags the men have. I even miss my own ones. So...handing over to a higher power would look like me keeping up my yoga and meditation practise, instead of letting it slide because there are other new things going on. Because that's a time when I feel genuinely peaceful and connected to the reality that I am OK just as I am, I don't have to do anything to be acceptable. It would look like...me stating that I want to wait to a potential partner up front. It would look like me focusing on identifying what I was feeling, and going to meetings so that I have more of a chance to find out what is really going on in me.
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Post by Healing Ku'uipo on Jan 2, 2014 3:37:50 GMT -8
I totally agree with Taking it slow... Sometimes it's so hard to relax! I have been dating a guy lately...dinners and excursions. No sex of any kind. And when my Anxiety peaks in my life I fantasize seducing him right away, I can't wait any longer...I'm thinking "If I don't do something RIGHT NOW then everything will end!" That is such All or Nothing thinking brought up by my anxiety and I disagreeuming tendencies.
So reading your posts is a good reminder to try and slow down. My question is How? How do we slow down when we first date and we are intrigued by someone?
What are the tools?
What do people do when they are spinning out of control? HK
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Post by LovelyJune on Jan 2, 2014 4:16:17 GMT -8
Hi Healing, The answer to your question goes back to my comment on another of Paisley's threads: the tools to remove obsessive thinking is to replace obsession with another, healthier obsession-- one that has MEANING. Fantasy, in this instance, has virtually little meaning, except that love addicts assign it HUGE meaning because it is such a valuable part of the love addict's life. But think about people who do not obsess over relationships…what do they do or have instead? They assign more value to other parts of their lives: work, family, volunteerism, philanthropy, art, music, WHATEVER… So, your tool, your work, is to find something that means MORE than this relationship and what happens with it. Well…how do you do that? You get involved with things…many things until something clicks. The bad news is that you have to get out of your comfort zone to seek out new experiences. The good news is that most all of us have addictive personalities and that same personality that can become addicted to a man or to the chase, can ALSO become addicted to anything else. The trick is to find something that is ALSO an investment in you. All the time and effort you spend focusing on "What if" could be spent doing something far more valuable. WE are only on this earth a short time…it's time to make all your actions and thoughts COUNT
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Post by Healing Ku'uipo on Jan 3, 2014 10:27:41 GMT -8
You nailed it LovelyJune! I guess what happens to me, and maybe some others here...is that I do have a life and a focus, then I meet someone and it's like they are a Big Bright Shiny Penny, and all my other interests pale in comparison. And maybe that's part of the Laws of Attraction, but Geeze! I've noticed the longer I am in recovery the shorter the Shiny Penny affect has on me, maybe that's the best I can do, take steps towards normalcy as soon as I am able.
Does this help you Paisley?
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Post by CodepNomore on Jan 3, 2014 13:09:12 GMT -8
Impressive! That is a good discernment. ("Chase", "manipulate", "act out", "project"...)
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Post by dhafirah on Jan 3, 2014 18:58:19 GMT -8
So I just told her, "I'm not drowning and he's not inviting me into his boat."
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Post by dhafirah on Jan 3, 2014 18:59:18 GMT -8
Great comeback, paisley
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Post by LovelyJune on Jan 4, 2014 2:45:54 GMT -8
BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!! Don't you just love those empowering moments when concepts like that just pop out?! Way to go. And you're SO right. As a love addict, I used feminism as an excuse to act out. I would tell myself, "It's not fair that a man can ask me out and pursue me, but I can't pursue him. Well, forget that…I want to be EQUAL." In retrospect, this was a total sham. I simply wanted to feed my addiction. I now believe that the "dance" of dating or the chase happens organically, and it comes from BOTH sides. A woman can make her interest known via body language and eye contact and physically/mentally being available to someone. ANd in turn, if this person is interested in her, he senses this interest and asks her out and she responds yes. In this sense, there's no cat and mouse chase, but rather, two people who are playing no games but simply letting their interest be known in subtle ways. If a guy is not picking up on a woman's subtle body language, that's a sign: he is either not interested OR he may lack confidence or the ability to recognize body language. ANd while this second idea seems appealing to a love addict (he COULD want to date me, he just doesn't know how), I'm not so sure it is. We want to get into relationships with HEALTHY individuals who have confidence, know what they want and are emotionally and physically available. All the more reason not to ever aggressively pursue anyone. I am a firm believer in--if it's meant to be, it's meant to be.
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