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Post by Susan Peabody on Oct 17, 2008 16:34:26 GMT -8
I am bringing back an old thread at the request of one of our members:
From Metamorphosis . . .
I believe in NC, but as Susan said sometimes it is impossible. I go to a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous every day. When I first broke up with this guy I changed meetings. I missed my friends terribly so I went back. At first it hurt to see him. Then, as I posted on this board, the spell was broken when I called him at a time I knew he was home and he did not pick up. Now there is no painful longing. But I am still attracted to him and I still like him. We speak briefly after meetings.
I started this thread to get some opinions about boundaries. I do not want people to tell me about NC. I know about this. I have read all the threads. I am going to try boundaries instead.
To me NC is essential when you are still in love and longing to be with someone. I was obsessed with my therapist and finally got over him a few months after I ended therapy and did not see him anymore. But in this current situation I want to explore boundaries not NC.
From Telmita . . .
Met,
I understand your need for boundaries instead of NC. I myself have started to use "boundaries" as I bumped into my PoA the other week and we've talked several times since--he lives in my neighborhood and bumping into each other is inevitable.
I am at a point though where the boundaries are quite amorphous and this concerns me. He calls whenever he wants and I pick up the phone. He'll ask if I want to go out and do stuff and though I say no, I feel the pull. It's like a black hole. You get too close and you get sucked in. Boundaries fail if you are not careful. Think of it as a social smoker--cutting back to one cigarette a day, instead of quitting cold turkey. There are people who can do this. I, personally, cannot. I know my limits. You need to know yours. I know, for example, that my boundaries won't hold out much longer with my PoA and that i will have to return to NC again. Plain and simple.
Test the waters. That's what recovery is all about: trying out different ways of coping in certain situations. You might be great with boundaries, but you might not. The ability to recognize your limitations and pull back and change if necessary will be what saves you.
From Metamorphosis . . .
My POA does not pursue me therefore he cannot cross over my boundaries. I initiate all contact and he is polite. So my goal is to stay in remission. If talking to him triggers "longing" I will back off. So far I am happy flirting and showing him that I am fine without him. I am going to take your advice and learn through trial and error what works. I know I am playing with fire here. I will be honest about that. But I am not in pain. That is the main thing for me. And I would love to learn how to love someone without longing. That would be recovery for me. Love without pain. Loving someone without the pain of him not loving me back. If I could learn that through this experience I will be happy. I wish I could have learned it when I was "in love" with my dad.
From Susan Peabody . . .
Some people we will fall out of love with. Some people we will forget. Some people we will have no contact with. Some people we will love without pain. Get there anyway you can--boundaries or no contact. Take it on a case by case basis. The correct answer to whether you need boundaries or NC will come from self-honesty. "This above all: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man." (Hamlet)
However, if you are in doubt, err on the side of NC
From an LAA Member . . .
Hi al. Hmmm. I have been wracking my brain all week about this subject, after seeing my POA on Monday. I had not seen him in 2 months and it was a relief (not seeing him).
Seeing him brought up a lot of old memories and has caused a lot of grief. Some of the grief is natural; seeing someone I cared for in such a vulnerable state (I have mentioned on a post, he has been receiving treatments for an illness and is very weak) and wondering if he is going to make it. It's very sad and scary. It fills me with regret and guilt at the difficult times we went through and the pain we caused each other.
My addiction kicks in with the wanting to be the one who is with him through this, operative words being "THE ONE". He is engaged and has someone looking after him. I still find it hard to accept, graciously, that it is not me.
I am struggling with the "boundaries" vs. "NC", both of which I have been practicing with him for years.
Like you Met, he does not initiate. We are not in a relationship. It is I who still carry the torch. I know that my priority is that I want to be appropriate in our contact, and I think I have been. I think he sees this, too. I do not, and have not flirted with him in years.
Our encounters are pleasant and usually about work stuff. But like you and Telmita address, it's a slippery slope. If he were single, I could definitely see myself sliding into oblivion!
My pain has come from watching him carry on his new relationship the past 2 years. I've pulled back from frequenting our place of work, and have gone to other branches, because it gets too painful seeing them together.
So a lot of my contact -- or just seeing him -- is a choice. My behavior is appropriate. Its a question of how much pain I want to give myself.
Sorry to ramble. Please post your progress with this situation. I think it is definitely possible to love without pain. I'm not there yet with this fellow. It will take a lot of letting go.
Thanks! From an LAA member . . .
This is so well said. I too have issues with upholding my boundaries, but after this weekend of NC I, finding that I feel stronger and I'm that much closer to gaining the self esteem that I need.
One day,I hope to be able to care enough for ME that I can set healthy boundaries for myself.
Personally Ive found that I was so terrified at the thought of no contact that I'd look for other ways to be in the relationship and at the same time heal myself. Some people just simply have to go. And NC is the best way of dealing with them. From an LAA member . . .
Again I relate. When it comes right down to it I am terrified of no contact. I too looked for ways to stay connected while "disengaged" and working on my self.
I should have walked away years ago. Complete NC.
I'm going to hang in there and read and post and pray. From an LAA member . . .
I feel for myself at this time NC is best. Last week I had a brief fantasy to drive by her house, maybe she'd be out, she'd be happy to see me, invite me in etc. Felt that high. Did this once before recovery, saw her overnight friends car there, was devastated. So I was able to talk myself out of it and did not stop. Visualized her like a bottle of alcohol to remind myself I'd be starting all over again. This person, I believe is a s/w narcissist. She could be the most charming and warm one minute and cold, cruel , distant the next. I recalled how that felt and what it did to me. So in my situation, I feel I don't want to be treated badly by her or anyone else in my life anymore. This seems to work best for me at this time. From an LAA member:
When you are ready...This isn't something to be rushed. For me it wasn't. It took me forever and still I struggle.
Have you at least set some boundaries? Are you doing things to take care of yourself? Don't loose sight of the goal.
I'm taking it one hour a a time.The one hour in ON TOP OF THE WORLD. And the next I'm down in the gutters again. I feel like I'm loosing my mind.
From an LAA member . . .
Hi M, for me, boundaries is about my choosing appropriate levels of intimacy with people. Think of a target with a bulls eye. The concentric circles. Now instead of solid circular lines allow each line to be permeable-- have small openings.
On the outer ring put strangers, on the next ring put co-workers, acquaintances, people you see at church, the postman, etc. on the next ring in put friends, some family, a casual lunch date, your hairdresser, trainer, etc... On the next ring put close friends, people that matter, someone your seeing steady, your sponsor, on the next ring in ( see they get smaller) put your best friend, a committed long term relationship, your close family, maybe a spiritual adviser or priest, In the very center circle, it's you and your higher power
This is what taking it to another level is about. Another level of intimacy built on trust built in the previous level. This is how is was explained to me.
On the outer level we talk about the weather, its a nice day, who won at the Olympics, etc next layer, we talk about the same but slightly more personal--movies we saw, great sales at the mall, the neighbors new flowerbed, etc. If people are respectful and we are comfortable we can offer small things about ourselves and see what they do with them. If they are respectful consistently we can allow them into a closer ring. If we let them in closer and they are not, we bump them back out a level.
Boundaries are not walls, they are fluid. Our comfort is defined by us. My comfort is defined by myself and cannot be disputed by anyone. I decide. Based on my decisions I allow people into my life at varying levels of intimacy.
The levels of intimacy develop that way. We know our boundaries are crossed when we are uncomfortable. I am practicing this and it helps. It is easiest with new people. People who I let way too far in already take more effort. My last POA, is very difficult because I allowed him to jump in close when he belonged much further out. He was relating to me from the outer ring and I was relating to him from an inner ring. We were not on the same level. It is still hard for me to accept that.
I am only now learning about this and how to practice it. The inner rings of close friends is where private sharing begins and I always jumped the gun there too. So, this is exciting. I remember Discretion = Delay.
I have to think what I say, before I respond and see how I feel. What level are they, what do I share at that level?, how do I feel, am I comfortable?
I guess that many of us have this to work on. Given our histories it makes sense.
Not learning it in childhood is no excuse for not learning it now. I could use support in this area and will gladly support those of you who are also learning how.
From an LAA member . .. .
I need to learn now.You are so right we need to relate to people as to where they are in the scheme of things. I too have had POA's be to close and they were on a total different level.
From an LAA member . . .
Oh boy, that's me! Way to intimate with EVERYBODY my whole life. I'm that classic "too much information" person. I'm getting better though. Little by little. I love everyone's feedback on this.
"Discretion" -- oh what a GREAT quality!
From Metamorphosis . . .
I just wanted to check in. The weaning process is going slow. I still see him every day at AA. I have stopped emailing him because he says he is 4 weeks behind on his email. I am going to stop writing him. I am going to make fewer phone calls. But I am still attracted to him and when I saw him with another women my heart stopped. Until life has going to separate meetings I will see him and my goal is to turn off the passion and just be platonic. I feel I am making progress and I am not in pain. My Higher Power has lifted the painful craving to be with him much like he lifts the compulsion to drink for an alcoholic. Am I still in denial about boundaries versus NC. Maybe!
From an LAA member . . .
M:
I think you're doing well. You are weaning yourself from the contact. You are seeing clearly what contact with him (outside of AA meetings) does to you. All in time Metamorphosis.
I was wondering how you were doing. You are staying strong and you ARE making progress. Don't doubt yourself on that front.
From Metamorphosis . . .
I am realizing that each path to recovery is different. At this point, I can't love without desperation, addiction, and fantasy. I can't be with someone right now...the loneliness and withdrawal is too high at this point to be in constant closeness or communication with my POA...I often think about what they'll think of me...or I could at least give them a warning???I am learning that this is not essential. Recovery is about me...and if it's really meant to be...wouldn't I find and be with that person when we are both healthy. Boundaries was simply something I used to stay addicted. A POA called me once a month for about twenty minutes...and it is still giving me a fix. I pray that I can completely let go one day...without limerance, torch bearing, and fantasy.
Every day I love him less. This is a first for me. Dorothy Tennov says you either transfer limerence or starve it to death. I have always tranferred it (torch bearer). This is the first time it is just dying a slow death. Is this recovery?
From an LAA member . . .
M:
Yes. I believe it is recovery.
From an LAA member . . .
Yes, I believe it is recovery when starving it . I am doing the same thing. I find that I cannot put a time limit on it. But it is the way to go for me. AS time passes hopefully other interests start taking hold. Building on little successes. I am feeling better and have a better perspective on things. WE must be patient with ourselves. I actually tried to transfer it somewhere, but I guess God said try another way. Progress not perfection, From an LAA member
Hi all -- personally, I wouldn't mind transferring that limerence to something fulfilling in my life that will BENEFIT ME. But I do not want to transfer it to another person. It's painful but I would like to get at the bottom of things with me and more or less start with a clean slate. Everyone's path and desires are different, of course. I am not looking for a relationship with anyone but myself right now.
I'd be happy -- ECSTATIC -- to just not have the pain which still remains from the last POA. I have a good life, and I'm grateful for many, many things. But this last addictive situation really affected me in a way that I think fundamentally changed me. But maybe this is just withdrawal and realization. Maybe a joy will return. I don't know. I hope.
From Metamorphosis . . .
I took a step backwards. Too much flirting. It has fanned the flames of desire. So I am going to step back and go to less meetings where I will see him. I really am a love addict and find I enjoy being in love even if it is all in my head. But I am playing with fire here. If I go too far with my fantasies the pain will come back and I don't want that.
From an LAA member . . .
Good to hear from you Metamorphosis. I have had the same experience. I have realized that I have to limit my contact with POA (we see each other frequently) to "hello/goodbye".
And with me, even THAT could flame a fire!
Thanks for sharing your experience with that because I know you were wondering how it would work out.
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Post by puertas13 on Oct 23, 2008 14:22:03 GMT -8
This is fantastic! Just what I needed. I think Susan, when you say, "Get there anyway you can--boundaries or no contact. Take it on a case by case basis. The correct answer to whether you need boundaries or NC will come from self-honesty," that is such a relief to me! I won't feel like such a failure then in this case and the pressure isn't so high. I know that right now at this moment, as someone mentioned above, "if it triggers longing, back off." So right now, I'm not in control and I am longing, so I'm going to make the move for NC, especially through this weekend. That will be VERY hard since I know that my PoA only has this weekend free and then will be travelling both for business and pleasure through the end of November!!! I know though, that I will make it. Wish me luck! - Jules
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Post by puertas13 on Oct 26, 2008 14:20:11 GMT -8
i wish I had more will power in those same instances; when she calls or emails and I immediately contact her without thinking about it. How does one cultivate will power and self-discipline? Funny, I'm extremely disciplined in all other areas of my life!
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Post by polywog on Nov 30, 2008 10:47:22 GMT -8
OMG, what a perfect thread for me to read.... I just found it here! Like Metamorphosis, I see my POA at AA meetings. The other hard part is that we are friends, not just buddies, but something closer. He told me last week that he has never felt closer to anyone, and that he feels as if he has known me forever, etc. etc. BUT he is in no place for a relationship. I am coming on my year anniversary, and as I mentioned in another thread was thinking about dating again. I told him that if he wanted, I would date him. But in my gut, I don't think I can do that... with him or anybody yet. He told me that he is not ready for a relationship yet, and I know he isn't. A part of me knew that when I proffered myself, and it's as if I was courting the "No" answer to play out rejection.
Should add here some history... we met summer of '07 when we were both coming out of LTRs and just were drawn to each other on every level. I mean Every level, including disfunction! By the fall, things were going too fast and he pulled back, started going to AA, and we attempted a relationship but he didn't want to because he needed the space, which I understood. By December I ended up in AA, too. We maintained a friendship and I did not plan to enter into a relationship with him. When I got my 90 days, he ended up coming on to me and I caved in... then I saw all the inherent problems (he instantly became withdrawn yet was fine with sleeping together) and I said I couldn't do it. Long story short, a few times after this we slept together and also grew closer as friends, it has just been weird boundary-wise. With my LA he became my POA. He does avoidant stuff, including drawing me back in when I set boundaries. The funny thing is, that we have talked very openly about this stuff and have both learned from it, and it has also made our friendship closer.
How the heck do I deal with boundaries in this situation? I have grown from it by Not avoiding him, yet I think way to much about him. And worse, now that FEELINGS are coming out, like jealousy, possessiveness, mistrust, in spades because of where I am in my sobriety from alcohol it's crazy right now. I'm working my program and asking for help, and praying a Lot.... but I am not sure exactly how to handle this boundary stuff.
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Post by winnie on Dec 2, 2008 9:23:00 GMT -8
I think this has come up a few times before and I do think its important to address the boundaries stuff . It just isn't possible to have NC for everyone sooo we should post regularly about boundaries esp as Telmita says it can be slippery slope.
I am in contact with my poa. we have a financial situation. My boundaries are ( and i dont always stay within them)
I do not tell him I love him , ( even tho at times in my head I want to and think it will solve everything), I do not call on him for help when things go wrong( a classic way i use to try and pull him back in), I do not see him very often as it is too painful and i know I will get back on my hamster wheel and go nowhere, we do not pseak about our relationships ( although at times he likes to ask questions to poke around and see where Im at0 , I do not read into things and imagine that when he says something kind it means he wants to marry me ( so hard tho), I regulate my speculation about him and my friends do not alllow me to do it with them,
what would you like your boundaries to be ? winnie
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Post by Judy on Dec 2, 2008 10:50:16 GMT -8
Winnie - I love the one about thinking he wants marraige when he sais something kind. Oh, God, do I relate. It's crazy, isn't it? That's why I try to keep it short and sweet with the last poa who I see frequently. My mind starts the analyzing the minute he asks me a question. And like you - I won't even participate in a work related conversation that my poa is involved in. I don't talk about him to anyone anymore. Which I'm sure my close friends are forever grateful for!!
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Post by happygal1234 on Dec 2, 2008 17:07:42 GMT -8
I can relate to the boundaries versus NC thing. At this point, I am really trying to change the way I relate to the POA instead of NC. Trying not to contact, answer calls, counting the days, etc., makes me concentrate MORE on the relationship! So, at this point, I no longer express loving thoughts or emotions to him, I keep the emails short and friendly and breezy, I keep any phone conversations light, I NEVER talk about the relationship, I don't use my nickname but answer everything with my given name, etc. I am hoping the lack of any drama will BORE me into eventually moving out of this thing (LOL!), or at least get me to the point where I don't care too much. I actually DON'T care as much as I used to. I keep busy, too.
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Post by winnie on Dec 3, 2008 2:02:12 GMT -8
Hey Highflyer you make a very good point about NC which is kind of what i feel alot of pople fall into, often NC means they are thinking about their POA even more!!
I know this isn't true for everyone but I have seen it a few times and know it was true for myself. YEs sometimes it is the only way NC, however learning to regulate yourself like you and I have can be just as effective. In 'women who love too much' Robin Norwood says , recovery isn't about whether you are with him or not or what you will do with regards to him ( I do not know the qoute off by heart so this is not word for word!) but we begin with ourselves and the rest will follow.
I like this cos it puts the attention back on you, and if you have chosen the path that you will do boundaries rather then NC then it definately feels like it can maybe work.
I think boundaries may be harder ,much much harder, but thats just me, but for me its working.
I can give tips to anyone who wants to take thi spath , I have many stratergies!!
winnie
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Post by LovingGracefully on Dec 3, 2008 6:51:04 GMT -8
Hi Everyone!
I'm sitting here thinking about the concept of boundaries or No contact at all.
Here's some things that are flooding my mind: If the person you want to maintain a "Boundaried Relationship" with is making you feel anything less than treasured why keep the contact at all?
Here's some questions you could ask yourself:
Why is this person in my life?
What do they mean to me?
What do I mean to them?
Is having contact (even limited) a manipulation for them to love you?
Are the "limited" conversations, texts, emails, face-to-face your way of proving to them in a false way that you are feeling ambivalent towards them?
Are you aware that all contact can lead to more intimate contact causing even greater pain? A simple conversation after a while can lead to flirting...well, you get it.
Is this person a good person? Do they have your back?
Is having contact promoting the control you need over this person?
I'd ask yourself how true can you be with this person at all. I mean, if you have to tell them untruths just to tolerate a conversation then I wonder what the motives are...besides negating impending pain of withdrawal. Do these people deserve your friendship?
Just my thoughts. It's hard...I'd like to have limited contact with my "ex", however, I know I'd lie to him about my feelings in order to do so. I'd have to pretend that what he's doing isn't hurtful to me. I'd have to act like I was alright. So, lying, pretending, acting...that's not how I want to spend my time with someone.
Have you asked yourself what you do in order to appear aloof about his/her life just to keep the contact going?
It's hard...we all know this. Being honest with yourself is part of recovery. Having healthy, reciprocal relationships are part of recovery. Feeling and knowing you have the ability to choose who is allowed inside your life...and not having them there out of desperation...is all part of recovery.
What is healthy for you to do?
More to think about for myself as well!
LovingGracefully
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Post by LovingGracefully on Dec 3, 2008 8:19:23 GMT -8
Oh, yeah...I was again thinking about this subject and I thought about all the old boyfriends that have continued to be in my life. I thought, "why is it alright if they are in my life and (he) cannot be like them?"
Well, here it is! There are a few people in my life that still draw pain for me. Since about the age of 19 until now (I'm 38) I have had 4 people seriously effect me where I had such a hard time getting over them.
The guys inbetween...some of whom I have loved...I was able to walk away from them...why? Why is it that every guy I have cared for isn't a trigger?
The men that have been out of my life and that we've decided on keeping a friendship together have all been completed. They hold no effect on me one way or the other. I do not have ANY romantic ties to them so there can be a friendship. They don't hold romantic ties to me either. We can discuss other relationships in our lives without one bit of pain! There's no holding torches for these people...they don't hold one for me.
It only seems possible to continue a friendship when BOTH parties have no romantic feelings either way. I do have friendship love for them but I know that is all that is there. I don't desire them....I do treasure what we had but I have a plain view of what it is now. There is no sitting on the fence. I have a friend now who I have had a past with...an emotional, sexual, intimate past with who I now have a legitimate friendship with.
I know for certain that my last "ex" will likely never be able to be my friend. He knows how I feel. I know how I feel. I feel too connected with him romantically to ever just be his friend and be privy to his romantic life with others. I don't want to see it, hear about it, know it or feel the pain from it.
He cannot be my friend because I'm not over him. I'll likely not ever be in a place where friendship can be an option.
I don't understand why I can engage in a relationship with some ex-boyfriends and not others. I don't understand how even if I was so hurt or in love with someone that now I can just feel only friendship toward them...no ill feelings. Just emotional friendship bonds.
I think having a friendship with someone who still brings you pain means that one or both of you is not in the right place to bring that legitimacy to the word friendship. Both of you have to feel the same. Both have to be moving in one direction.
I wish I could have "him" in my life still. I loved him so much and I'm sad he's gone but I know that what he would offer me is not what I want from him. I could probably lie to him and tell him I'm over it just to get back in. I would be living a lie. He wouldn't hurt from being my friend but I would suffer tremendously. I miss him but I refuse to feel any additional pain having him in my life would offer me. It's already done enough damage to my life. I have enough pain from things I've already done to myself by trying to manipulate the situation shortly after it ended.
I think this is helping me sort out my own feelings on this subject. I'm writing out what I'm feeling right now to you!
LovingGracefully
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Post by winnie on Dec 3, 2008 11:07:02 GMT -8
hey LG, I love your posts here , really well thought out with some great points . Thank you for your honesty.
I think the questions you asked were great and really useful.
You have said what you have said in a very measured way to , I really admire that.
when you say " it is only possible to continue a freindship when both parties have no romantic feelings either way" I completely get what your saying. It makes perfect sense, But I guess i am an example of how this isn't necessarily always the way it goes.
I have to reiterate that it is a hard way of doing things initially but over time it works very well. i do still love my POA and we are still friends.
The boundaries I have set for myself and posted up here really work for me. also the thing of going off and working on me and realising that although he was in my life that actually he wasn't the measure of me any more.
I am am full, definate , whole person without him , I really am.
we dont spend time together but chat on the phone about things like his football club , my work , my family and son. I find it satisfying in many ways, as does he I think other wise im pretty sure he wouldn't do it.
he is a good person , a very good person. I dont hold him responsible for my feelings any more which is great . I have ownership over them. Im in charge and im responsible.
I guess a good question is am I ever in pain? well yes occasionally , but it is never as a direct result of talking to him . Never, it is just sometimes when I feel low or something is going on and I want someone to be there for me. I do not find our relationship painful. I like the way i have kept him in my life and still maintained recovery.
It has been a good measure of my recovery as well. I do sometimes have the hope thing. But I am able to put it in a box and to one side and see that that is all it is empty hope . I would never in a million years go to him and try to do something cos of this hope . Cos really and truly the hope comes from me and how Im feeling at that time , not from him, its not really anything to do with him.
I think many non LAs are in love with thier friends and know there is no hope and remain friends. I don't think it makes the freindship without legitamicy. Im not sure I think it is that black and white for me.
Obviously for an LA its so so so much harder but with brutal honesty with yourself, it is possible I feel. But what is right for one person is not always , of course right for another.
Winnie
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Post by Judy on Dec 3, 2008 17:35:39 GMT -8
Lovinggracefully - Thank you so much for your post - and you too, Winnie! - but lg - I am EXACTLY where you are with regard to past loves or poa's, most of whom are not in my life anymore just because of logistics, but who I would be fine with now on a friendly basis.
BUT - I am right where you are with your last poa. I don't know that I will ever be over my last poa enough to be friends. I"ve always known that that was just not in the cards. Because, at least for now, I don't want to be just friends. I have posted for months that I see him frequently and we are pleasant - and any conversations we have are basically work related. I know that I am nowhere NEAR ready - or interested - or capable - of having conversations regarding his personal life. Nor can I share mine with him. It's way to bond-forming. I have also realized of late how a perfectly basic work conversation COULD lead to flirting. And I cannot go there. He is with someone else now and I will not do that to myself or another woman.
So, all these realizations are very interesting. AND I loved how you mentioned that it wouldn't cause your poa any pain to have personal conversations. The same holds true for my poa. He'd be fine talking about anything. But it would be too painful and confusing for me.
Right now to choose complete NC would mean not going to a location I spend a lot of time in and I don't want to go that route entirely yet. I've cut back a lot which is good. But haven't done the complete NC about it changing branch locations (we work for the same organization). But we'll see.
Anyway, thanks again. It's so great on this board when someone so aptly describes one's own situation.
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Post by whiterose on Dec 11, 2008 12:45:48 GMT -8
Thanks for all these wonderful posts - I have been debating myself whether I should act on NC or actually let things fade away. Do I not contact him at all anymore (even if I need to cut my fingers off in order not to dial his number)? Or do I try to explain why i want NC? I tried that option once, and he always finds a way to manipulate me into keeping contact somehow, he wants to make sure I am still around but does not want a relationship... So i always get confused at the end, does he love me and can not separate from me and it will take time for him to reach the commitment state or he just wants to make sure I am around until he deciedes it's over... I don't know... His narcissitic behavoir is so confusing and disturbing, because one day he will make me feel the most special person on earth to him and the next day, complete withdrawl and cold... So distrubing and confusing....
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Post by Sobrietythirst on Dec 11, 2008 17:26:06 GMT -8
So perhaps whiterose, if it still has this effect, do not contact him. If it confuses you, it will only distract from your recovery. Your recovery is the first option. This will only keep you from not giving 100 percent to your recovery. You have to be honest with yourself.
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Post by whiterose on Dec 11, 2008 21:37:58 GMT -8
thanks sobreitythirst. as you know sometimes it get so difficult to control... but this time I really want to make a difference, i really want this recovery to work because it is a matter of survival at this point. i started a new therapy with a female therapist, and she said that I have so many chidhood wounds and profoud abandoment issues that it's the main cause for my clinging to emotionanly unavailable men, just like my father is... anyway, to say that all this goes wwaaaaaayyyyy back and so many layers to take care of, so many layers to heal... I will try my best NC, I think it is the only way at this point. thank you.
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Post by pcnpdh on Dec 23, 2008 3:17:51 GMT -8
Thanks, LG and others for your clarity. I'm new to this program and website and I really liked the idea of asking the question what I'm gaining from this relationship.
I started a NC when the guy I'd been dating for over 2 months, but mostly talking online to on a daily basis before going to bed each night, pulled way back and then let me know he'd decided to date another woman. We were not officially in a committed relationship but we seeing each other exclusively just because we kind of fell into that situation by default. He was just coming out of another relationship when I met him online and I knew deep down inside that he was not available because he felt the need to talk about her and how she hurt him, etc. On the other hand, I am more of an anorexic, having gone 5 years without a relationship (and I've done that repeatedly throughout my life, just because I don't know how to handle relationships without hurting myself when I'm in one).
I think we both really wanted to be attached to someone and it was a kind of enmeshment. He's an interesting, funny, intelligent, talented person. But in some ways, though he's very polite and "considerate", I've felt that he had a kind of icy, hollow, way about him. I wonder now if I could say the same about myself. We're both survivors of pretty abusive, neglectful childhoods. We are both addicts in other programs and I wonder if that doesn't mean I just play-act most of the time in relationships, trying to get someone else to fulfill my script to make myself feel better. So, I've had my doubts all along about our relationship but stuck it out because it felt "good" to pretend that we were in an evolving, deepening relationship. Is any of this making sense??? Sorry if I'm rambling/ruminating.
When he said he was going to date someone else, but then said he was "fond of me," followed by saying he "loved" me, I said I didn't want to interact with him at all if he was going to date someone else. I felt betrayed. At the same time, my intuitions about this were good from the start - I just didn't follow them. I think there was some leading me on, but I helped a good deal.
So, there was NC for about 2 weeks and I began to feel better although I felt intense pain periodically, which I felt I should medicate by seeing other people. So just as I was getting more detached, I started going online again and arranging dates with others, none of which came to anything. Then I allowed myself to be talked back (by some friends) into the idea that the first guy and I had had some real connection and this guy and I should talk about our relationship again at some point after things settled down. I was thinking we could have some kind of relationship with better boundaries, but reading everyone's posts, I'm having my doubts. I sent an email asking if he wanted to talk again after a period of time and he said yes. Of course, I started thinking about him again. I'm no longer in intense pain but I don't think I'm recovering much either. Is recovery always this painful? I never had this kind of pain in my other programs!
This is not just about him and his behavior. I think I'm trying to "figure him out" and then manipulate myself into a relationship again. I tell myself I need to understand his motivations or how he really feels and my part in all of this, but I don't really need to do that, do I? I think it's just about not feeling the pain of separation and withdrawal.
One way I've noticed this is that I started having "deep" conversations with another guy online (he contacted me first) and so there's that pattern again and I had to back up on that guy and say "What is going on here? What is it about me that i do this?" Then I ran into my ex-husband, who I'm so clear I don't want to be in a relationship with again, even though I have fantasized about our being able to be "friends" and still do some of the things I enjoyed about him, like dancing. And lo and behold, while out dancing last Saturday, he shows up (1st time in 6 years!) and I not only danced with him but many times and I found myself being coy and getting angry at him for disappearing from time to time. Never ever saw these patterns before in myself but there they were. I had to leave the dance place and just go home.
So, it's not just about those guys per se....it's something about me and my childhood wounds. And I'm starting to believe that unless I do NC with all of these guys, I won't be able to confront my own issues because I'll just cover them up with other relationships/fantasies/mirages.
I SO do not want to be alone and confront those feelings. Anything but that. And yet....it seems to have something to do with having a relationship with myself and my higher power and healing, so I think I have to do it. NC with this last guy seems to mean contact with my true self.
I am truly scared. The pain I felt over the last 2 weeks was grinding.
Thanks for being there and sharing your experience, strength, and hope.
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Post by LovelyJune on Dec 23, 2008 3:46:40 GMT -8
Hello P,
What it sounds like to me is that you are desperately trying to avoid being alone-- or being anorexic again. Period. The thought of being without a man is horrifying to you and by your behavior (medicating with other men), you are taking steps to avoid this at all cost. Even at the cost of your dignity. You made a GREAT BOUNDARY. You say that if this guy dates other women you feel BETRAYED and his seeing other women is a deal breaker. Uphold that boundary. Why are you going back, now willing to change the rules? Be patient. A relationship takes a long time to forge and if you start off like this, it only gets WORSE. You had the right instinct. DOn't second guess yourself. I say relax, don't go back to this guy. Take the pledge to maintain NC. You are worth the wait. There is no hurry.
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Post by want2bfree on Feb 1, 2009 9:50:56 GMT -8
I want to have NC but it is impossible for me with a child together. I need help on this subject! Please any guidance.
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Post by lovely1 on Feb 20, 2009 22:12:35 GMT -8
I think this has come up a few times before and I do think its important to address the boundaries stuff . It just isn't possible to have NC for everyone sooo we should post regularly about boundaries esp as Telmita says it can be slippery slope. I am in contact with my poa. we have a financial situation. My boundaries are ( and i dont always stay within them) I do not tell him I love him , ( even tho at times in my head I want to and think it will solve everything), I do not call on him for help when things go wrong( a classic way i use to try and pull him back in), I do not see him very often as it is too painful and i know I will get back on my hamster wheel and go nowhere, we do not pseak about our relationships ( although at times he likes to ask questions to poke around and see where Im at0 , I do not read into things and imagine that when he says something kind it means he wants to marry me ( so hard tho), I regulate my speculation about him and my friends do not alllow me to do it with them, what would you like your boundaries to be ? winnie Winnie, I like this concept of boudries in terms of rules for myself. I've never really had anyone cross any personal boundaries with me, it's usually me doing the initiating with the online EMAs. And the men are usually relatively passive, not chasing me or anything. With me, I can use these boundaries/rules as a test to know whether a friend has the potential to become a POA and I need to let that friendship go. With my latest POA I was: *checking to see if he had signed on to the social network we both belonged to first thing in the morning. *I'd email him first thing in the morning, EVERY morning to get things rolling,then check for his responses many times throughoutt the day *I'd check to see who he was talking to and befriending on the network. I'd go to his friend's pages to see what they looked like, etc. *I'd write him long, detailed emails that might take 30 minutes or more to write pouring out my heart. With other online friends, I don't do ANY of the above. I don't check SPECIFICALLY for their email in my inbox, I just go to check my email in general and see their email and answer it, but there's no anticipation not like with the POA. I dont' snoop on my other friends. I do write long letters from time to time, but not every day. So if I see myself ever again exhibiting any of this stuff, that means I'm probably dealing with a POA and I'll go NC.
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Post by dovesend37 on Oct 29, 2009 10:48:10 GMT -8
Thanks everyone for sharing. I was starting to question the same thing, Boundaries or NC. At the present time I am in NC with my POA and it seems to be working out fine for me. I just recently wondered if I could go back to him but on different terms with different boundaries to avoid the pain.....Then the first thing that came to my mind while reading these posts was my memory of giving up cigarettes many years ago. I knew they were no good for me and they gave me pain in many ways, but I thought maybe I could cut down and make some boundaries with them. I tried for many months, maybe years, but always went back. One day I realized I had an addiction to them and I KNEW the only way I could lick them and recover was to have no contact with them at all. So I threw the whole pack in the garbage and never bought another one from that day on. I know my POA is no good for me and the relationship gives me pain. I believe I have made a decision from reading all these and I thank everyone so much. I know I have to continue with NC and try to remove him from my life. That is the sane answer for me. Many years from now after some time in recovery, if I ever saw him again, I hope I can remember not to ever let him in again, because I am an addict and he is addictive substance to me.
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Post by dovesend37 on Oct 29, 2009 11:01:54 GMT -8
When I completed writing this, I realized I left one point out. The No Contact rule for me is a way of reinforcing my boundaries for myself, whatever they may be. This means I have already decided that I cannot allow certain people that abuse these boundaries ever in my life. Obviously I have tested this out and it means I was not able to make positive boundaries with certain people. (and I guess I kept trying as this is where addiction comes in) If you know what things you do need to have in your life to make for a healthy relationship, you have already created your boundaries and you will not accept anything less than that. Therefore you will automatically have no contact with those kind of people.
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Post by Angel on Oct 30, 2009 5:41:16 GMT -8
I have been thinking about using boundaries with my POA's. I am an ambivilent which means that I can go annorexic very quickly. I am unsure of what this means in terms of my recovery cos NOT being in a relationship is a sign of my disease. Being in a sick relationship is a sign of my disease as well LOL.
I just asked my sponsor in another program and she believes that I am making a lot of progress but should hold off from being in a relationship for as long as I can, preferably up to a year from the time I came here. Which would make it another eight months or so. She says that like alcoholics our disease is cunning and baffling and that I wouldn't want to sacrifice all the recovery I have gone through just to go back to square one again!
That being the case I can hold off about dating or seeing anyone seriously for a further eight months but how do I know if I am acting annorexically (excuse the spelling if that isn't correct)? What is healthy in this sort of situation?
I can say honestly that the amount of time I spend fantasing and thinking isn't as much as before but I am not totally there. It is like I am suddenly terribly aware of all things around me. I guess it is a little like a smoker who gave up cigarettes and suddenly can taste things. I am seeing things I never saw before, experiencing things I never experienced before, all without the fog of Limerance or obsession.
Can someone give me some ideas on relationship annorexia and how to deal with it in a healthy way during recovery?
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Post by rockhound on Oct 30, 2009 13:19:02 GMT -8
The person who turned me on to this site is not really my POA, but I think she thinks she is. We had a relationship, but she identified me as needy and I identified her as aloof, using, controlling, and several other classifications of LA. But, I think our issues are with our history of addiction, and not with each other. At least I am not addicted to her. She led me down the path before it was evident that she had other motives. It was just a simple argument that separated us, but in hind sight it might have been the opening to end the relationship she was looking for. Still, she doesn't want a total end to our ....friendship....I am ok with that. My question is, do we do the NC and what good would that do. If she wants NC, all she has to do is tell me. She would rather do it as a punitive measure because that is part of her addiction MO. What do you think?
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Post by geedee on Nov 20, 2009 15:07:27 GMT -8
you seem to be worrying a bit too much about this person who you say you think she thinks is your POA...from all the questions you are asking yourself you seem to be dwelling on her and what she is thinking...maybe she is your POA after all?
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seekingserenitynow
Full Member
3rd time with No Contact is feeling better every day. The obsessing is cooling WAY down. :)
Posts: 194
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Post by seekingserenitynow on Jan 3, 2010 12:03:58 GMT -8
I've really struggled in the area of boundaries. This thread is very helpful. This topic is SO important to us codependent love addicts.
Have been working on really setting and feeling those boundaries. It'd be easier if they were more tangible, concrete, visible, CLEAR - less gray area. But they're not. Maybe for healthier people they are? Maybe clearly sensing boundaries (of the self and of others) is a skill that just improves with practice?
I've tended towards two extremes - letting people in too close and too quick (often unsafe or distant/avoidant people) vs. protecting myself so much I put up walls (like of fear, anger or silence) when unnecessary. Both extremes are really hurtful.
This lack of boundaries hurts my life so much I'm actually going to post in the "I need help" section now about how hurt I feel right now over a boundary-issue I had last night.
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Post by frost on Jan 3, 2010 16:29:50 GMT -8
As far as how long we should go without a relationship...
I think Robin Norwood points out - and the stories of several people on this board affirm - that we can do great in all areas of life but a relationship seems to simultaneously drag us down and cause our lives to spin out of control.
Some people have gone many years between the pattern repeating.
I think one factor is being able to set healthy benchmarks for a relationship - is there respect, is there honest sharing, is there mutual caring - things like that, and conversely being able to spot unhealthy behaviors in ourselves (are we sacrificing our boundaries, our values to be in this relationship? Do we feel unappreciated, do we tolerate disrespect?) And being able to spot unhealthy behaviors in others (Have they on occasion demostrate extreme selfishisness, or do they just constantly have a sort of loe-level of ambient selfishness about them? Do they engage in blame shifting? Are they angry, resentful and critical or judgmental? Do they have an addiction?)
I think maybe our ability to do these things / see these things is a better marker for our readiness to be in a relationship than just a time period, although I will say that no matter how much recovery I have and how much head knowledge I have about these things, I believe that it also takes time to get over a bad relationship. In some cases, in addiction to recovery work, it also just takes time to heal.
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seekingserenitynow
Full Member
3rd time with No Contact is feeling better every day. The obsessing is cooling WAY down. :)
Posts: 194
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Post by seekingserenitynow on Jan 5, 2010 0:14:12 GMT -8
Hmm. Good food for thought, frost!
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Post by moonlight on Jan 10, 2010 14:26:51 GMT -8
I am pondering over the form of contact I should keep with my xBF. We broke up 4 days ago. My thoughts about it have been shifting, but today I strongly felt he's not right for me and I should try to move on. but the risk is always there that suddenly I start thinking again he's The One. Even though he treated me disrespectfully, didn't communicate openly, and other things. But: he has two children. A boy and a girl. I know them for 9 months now. I love them. They love me. I think the boy is not yet very much attached (2,5 years old), but the girl (6) is. I have decided that I want to try and be in touch with her. For her sake. It is in my interest as well, but that really comes second when children are involved, I feel. By the way, I also have rather good contact with their mother. But I think she invested in this primarily because I was her children's stepmother. And I don't want to push it now by asking her if the contact can go through her. She is still hurting. I might ask her this in a few months or so. How to do this? One "relief" is that my x will probably have a new girl friend soon, as this has been the case in the past from what I heard. And I tend to detach when an x has a new partner. That really helps (though doesn't make me any more cheerful, of course..). But until then, I have to find a way to not use the LC as a fix. No compulsions. How can I do this? Right now I've made an appointment to meet him next Thursday with the kids to have French Fries. He was reluctant, didn't feel like it I think but he's made a promise before that should the relationship end, I could stay in touch with his kids. He himself doesn't see the benefit of it. He thinks children grow over it naturally. Even though I was the 7th new girlfriend in one and a half year. I know from their mother that the girl is sad and misses me. Poor thing. I've suggested to my x that next time, maybe I can pick her up from school and do something fun, than return her to his house later. So as to keep the contact with him to a minimum. I hope he'll be ok with this.
Moonlight
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Post by geedee on Jan 10, 2010 14:32:07 GMT -8
moonlight, personally I think you might end up confusing the kids even more. they are small and they'll getover you really quickly (sorry!) and if their dad is likely to get another gf really quickly, it's going to get worse.... greta
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Post by moonlight on Jan 10, 2010 14:38:31 GMT -8
Thanks Greta. I don't agree with you but thanks anyway!
Oh my god. He just wrote me that he's rethinking it and cancelling our appointment with the children. Oh no. I miss them so much. He has promised. I trusted him on this. Oh my god, no!!!!
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