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Post by LovelyJune on Oct 25, 2017 8:59:25 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2017 2:34:09 GMT -8
June, you're going to hate me for confessing that I might, once in a while, on a special occasion, regress to my college days and... I'm going to regret this... I inhaled. I'm a dirty addict in a lot of different ways. Alcohol never thrilled me and the growing legitimacy of marijuana is an interesting cultural development. I appreciate the plant and I'm grieved that we cannot use this useful plant in a more open way. Many people have attested that the most dangerous part of smoking some grass is the fact that you might get arrested. The grass isn't the problem, it's the heavy hand of Big Brother that busts your life up over a little plant. I'm so guilty, I can't begin to apologize to you adequately. I've been on G's side of your current concern over his "habit" and I identify with the guy. I have no idea about the true complexity of the relationship beyond this one article. The thing that came to mind was Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. One tenet of ACT is of course... AcceptanceI can tell you are conflicted over this. I know that by resisting G's desire to smoke, you are setting up a pattern of resistance. You do this by taking a side of a decisional balance in his mind of Smoke vs. No Smoke. You leap on the No Smoke side and jump up and down to weight his decision and any person might naturally hop on the opposing side just to hold the equilibrium in a decision they are not ready to make. Making him chose between you and his vice is sort of a "Love Test". I might be reading into this too much, you tell me. I wonder, if we do a thought experiment and ask "how would your relationship be different if he just changed in this small but important way"? The answer may be useful to consider. It's a mini Miracle question.
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Post by LovelyJune on Oct 28, 2017 11:34:51 GMT -8
The grass isn't the problem, it's the heavy hand of Big Brother that busts your life up over a little plant. Hmm...so much to say. Let me start off my explaining that my relationship was G came to a close about 11-12 years ago (thank God). This was a memoir-ish tale written for The Fix. But, I will say you have a point (and one that I realized 12 years ago) I did set him up for a "love test" and he failed. But, I failed too. I failed to realize you simply cannot change people. And G's pot smoking was an inherent part of him that I technically signed up for when I agreed to date him. My mistake was trying to change an integral part of him so that he could "prove" he loved me more than the pot. He did love me. He didn't love me more than the pot. And I didn't love him enough to put up with it. I am not sure you are saying this or not: that I should have "accepted" the pot and my relationship would have been better. Is that what you're saying? If so, I will have to disagree. We are love addicts because one of the things we lack or forfeit for love is a set of VALUES. Every human should have their own set of values-- they represent the most important thing on the planet to you and if you don't have them, you have a very difficult time finding peace and happiness. One of my values is NO DRUGS. Whether that's right or wrong to society doesn't matter. What matters is that I cannot be around people who do drugs (clarification: I can love and be friends with drug addicts, I cannot be in an intimate relationship with them or live with them). At any rate, long story short, I first chose G over my value. I dated a guy who went against my value. Eventually, I chose my value. And, what's more, I eventually found a partner who also SHARED my same value. Both my husband and I have lost family members to drugs, so, we relate to each other and don't believe drugs are the answer for anything (except maybe chronic pain, but, don't get me started. I tend to believe drug meds complicate the healing process and ultimately cause more pain). Finally, to address your comment above, to me, this sounds like the belief of all my pot smoking friends. On the one hand, yes, you're right, if pot was legalized there'd be no "legal" problem with pot. But, alcohol is legal and there are a heck of a lot of alcoholics. And while marijuana is a different substance than alcohol, please. I am almost 50 years old. I have seen it ruin lives. Many. I'm not talking about if you are smoking on a weekend, or once in awhile. That's not exactly a problem. But, if you're smoking daily-- you are taking away your ability to feel, to think clearly, to experience life without the crutch of the drug. Blah, blah, blah... At any rate, I am not anti-pot. I just don't want it in my life. And I am so glad it's not.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 21:35:44 GMT -8
Hmm...so much to say. Let me start off my explaining that my relationship was G came to a close about 11-12 years ago (thank God). This was a memoir-ish tale written for The Fix. But, I will say you have a point (and one that I realized 12 years ago) I did set him up for a "love test" and he failed. But, I failed too. I failed to realize you simply cannot change people. And G's pot smoking was an inherent part of him that I technically signed up for when I agreed to date him. My mistake was trying to change an integral part of him so that he could "prove" he loved me more than the pot. He did love me. He didn't love me more than the pot. And I didn't love him enough to put up with it. That does clarify, I was reading it as if it described current events in your life. I like to think about the complex set of variables that led to the destabilization of my relationship with POA. I continue to add up the simple math which leads to something like, "no person in this equation was capable of producing any different product than the one observed". At that moment you felt a need for him to show his love, he thought he needed something different. Both intentions missed a mark to produce a more positive outcome. I will attempt to clarify. I would like to believe that I hold personal values in high regard. In many ways, I have not been served by the letter of the law that guides my life. There are moments, specific moments, in which my own rigid thinking and value judgements have cost me the future of a relationship with POA. When POA tried to come out to me as a lesbian, we were young and both ignorant. Neither of us had experienced that conversation before. We did not know how to act towards each other in response to her growing unmet need for safe sexual contact (humans need love and she was highly inhibited from experiencing anxiety free relationships with men, due to the rape, by a man, she had suffered as a child). My faith traditions say to Flee from Sexual Immorality. I beat POA with bible verses until she hated me for it. I told her she was going to hell if she didn't change. She responded to the subject defensively (duh, who wouldn't?) and interpreted her sexual feelings for women as something which meant we could not be together. "I'm a lesbian now, I can't be in relationship with men." If, either of us could have been capable of sitting with the ambiguity of the situation, instead of feeling strongly black or white on the subject, our relationship would not be so broken now. If I could have been more accepting of her sincere feelings and desires, and less homophobic and judgmental, it would have been on her to decide if lesbianism meant that she had to push all men out of her life completely. If we both could have tolerated anxiety in the face of ambiguity, the end result may have been more connected and less toxic. I feel that interaction with POA was the true moment in which we both took sledgehammers to the bridge between us and irrevocably disconnected from one another. I would not have had to abandon my belief that her behavior was sinful according to Judeo-Christian systems of morality and ethics. At the same time, I might have felt more compassion for her woundedness and given her the opportunity to experience me as less of a threat to her growing identity as a lesbian. She might have chosen to maintain a relationship that would not have been marked by such a toxic cut off. We were both trapped in dichotomous thinking. "Dichotomy, in this case, is a self-defeating behavior using "all-or-nothing" or "black-and-white" thinking. The therapy teaches the patient how to change the dichotomy to a more "dialectical" (or "seeing the middle ground") way of thinking." ( from the Wiki on Dichotomy) I interned at a homeless shelter for men for about a year. I met many people who had experiences with drugs of all kinds. My supervisor and the team would, from time to time, discuss how the legalization of Marijuana would affect the program... We came to the conclusion that, while it may diminish people's experience of being broken by the system (Legal trouble regarding substance use is one of the diagnostic criterion for diagnosing pathology), people will still find themselves broken and drugs happen to be near. Self medicating is a thing. Is it the pathology that causes self medication? or the self medication that causes pathology? I never wanted to work with addicts. In my limited experience, drugs and various addictions are so universally experienced that you could not be seriously interested in helping people without being prepared to address drug use/abuse. I too wonder if I had compromised in the moment with POA and did not outright reject her for her gratuitous same-sex sexual behavior, would that mean that I was somehow complicit? I don't know the right answer, but I do know the way I handled it contributed equally to the destruction of our relationship. There was an opportunity for me to be more psychologically flexible and I completely wasted it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 21:44:22 GMT -8
You should not read this part. I'm going to blow your mind with information. This is a false path. This is a false path. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivational_interviewingWhen you want someone to change so badly that you learn how therapists evoke change in people displaying clear pathology. I've read everything William R. Miller and Stephen Rollnick have ever written and obsessively watched their videos. How I long to sit with POA and use these techniques on her to manipulate her for selfish desires to be with her. Knowledge is power, but used in the wrong way, it can perpetuate and even produce profound madness. I'm so sick in my mind that I rehearse that reconciliation conversation. With my training, I would know just the perfect set of words. If I could just exchange two or three sentences with POA, she might be influenced to pre-contemplate change. How is that for pathology?
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Post by LovelyJune on Oct 29, 2017 4:21:52 GMT -8
It sounds extremely narcissistic, almost god-like. And unhealthy.
But, I do find that there is ironic justice in your situation: a homophobic person falls in love with lesbian.
Anyway, my advice to you if you want to be less mad is this: stop complicating this situation with your words and thoughts. Learning to let her go only comes when you realize that she is an adult and can make adult decisions on her own. Learn to respect that decision. Learn to respect her. Second, you have values and you typically can’t change those and so does she. You don’t believe homosexuality is normal or healthy, but she does. I’m of the opinion that neither of you are right or wrong. You’re just so very different. You stuck to your values, she to hers and that meant the end of your relationship. There’s nothing wrong with that. But, it is painful.
I will say, the more you conjure up impossible scenarios the more pain you are causing yourself. Be well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 7:48:08 GMT -8
It sounds extremely narcissistic, almost god-like. And unhealthy. Yes, trying to manipulate others to get your selfish needs met is not a very nice thing to do. I wish that I were not so impotent when it came to communicating effectively with POA. There was a time when I had hoped she might come back around to a more normative and less confrontational way of life. I was not always so negative about the LGBT community. I used to go to human rights events with POA and I held progressive values in a time and place where it was not socially acceptable. POA used her sexuality as an excuse to push me out of her life when I was no longer useful or needed. POA physically, mentally, and socially abused me. My response was to form a negative opinion of the LGBT community. It's no different than POA panicking around men that remind her of her rapist. I think it's interesting that you find this is fitting justice. Perhaps I do deserve this. What do you suggest I do to redeem my tarnished soul? Maybe you could help me lay out a littany of my various mistakes and flaws and we can find appropriate ways to seek penance? I've done more in my personal faith community to raise awareness of LGBT issues within congregations than anyone else I know. I have personally worked with hundreds of people that have been hurt, first hand, by people that drift away into broken sexual behaviors. How many families have you sat with? How many Dads have you talked to that just wanted their son or daughter back? How many husbands and wives with marriage broken over sexual infidelity, same-sex or otherwise? How much pain do we have to bear as a community in the name of progressive sexual expression? I apologize if I am a little incensed by your implied feeling of schadenfreude over my situation. I think it's very hard to find respect for someone that has been so chronically and categorically abusive. The respect I give POA is the same respect one might give a rabid dog. I do think that you are right when you say there is more of an ideological split between POA and myself. My faith tradition and POA's convictions about the morality of her behaviors definitely made for a horrifying coupling. It surely is an illusion to hope that something might be recovered in the midst of such a blasted, backwards coupling. If I could chant the counter charm which dismissed these conjurations, I would. I feel like the thoughts and memories of POA invade my space like a small army of stalking butlers. I know no peace and neither do I think that I should ever have peace over this. I think that I should feel badly over a bad situation filled with horrifying and brutal mistakes. I fear though that I will feel this way for the rest of time if I can not find some weird graceful way to supernaturally transcend everything that has passed between us. Forever is a long time. Please believe me when I say that I, more than anyone else you will ever meet, would like to see grace and healing extended to our LGBT brothers and sisters in Christ. If that could happen more often in general, there would be more cause for a real hope that I might have some of that grace and healing for myself.
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Post by LovelyJune on Oct 29, 2017 11:01:02 GMT -8
By ironic justice I do not mean "my" justice or social justice. I mean your own. I do not wish you ill will. I wish you healing. And that's wonderful to know you've helped so many people. Now, can you help yourself, for that's where you will see a real payoff. That's where the real investment lies.
And not that I need to answer your question about our competing kindnesses in the world, but I have been helping people like you for nearly 10 years. My volunteer work in real life consists in helping two groups of people: immigrants who come to the USA who have trouble speaking English. And women who suffer from domestic abuse. I don't raise awareness or support the LGBTQ community in any special way. I simply have a lot of gay friends and love them all the same. Period.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 21:17:31 GMT -8
By ironic justice I do not mean "my" justice or social justice. I mean your own. To me, a close intimate friend that was hurting and sincerely in need, has been taken by the Dtoxic. You should know that all... all... helping relationships proceed from essential deficits in self-esteem. This is, in some ways, the reason that wounded healers are effective. Every healing they realize for others often symbolizes a resolution of the helper's primary deficit. Most victim support structures are careful to alienate and isolate men and women at the very times in their lives when they need help to relate to one another and obtain support to have needs met as a system and not as an individual. I think too many women are too quick to cut men off like a disease when the relationship is strained. Men in general are portrayed as violent and the government has no time to take half measures. It takes only the suspicion of abuse to land a man in jail, lose his job, lose his friends (the "victim" is free to commit relational violence and slander), then perhaps even face the loss of freedom as many jurisdictions have a surprisingly low bar, Codified in Law. Men's lives are destroyed by manipulative women. Do a search, a google search, for men's resources re: Stalking. Not just male victims, but specifically support or help for "perpetrators". I double dog dare you to, just once in a public setting, advocate for resources to support help for the men that feel driven to batter women. Men have deficits that lead to these violent outbursts. Wouldn't the soulful thing to do be to support the family system instead of artificially amputating it? Did you know there are "How To" pages on leaving your husband and children for lesbianism?I think you really need to consider the fact that a label like LGBT does not excuse a person from decent behavior, nor does it make a person some kind of special sexual saint. These kind of articles are NAKEDLY HOSTILE to men. That mentality is not only encouraged, it's celebrated by lesbians. In fact, it is part of many lesbian identity formation narratives. In some cases, that hostility is central to the identity. Do not be complicit in that process!
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