Elisa
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Post by Elisa on Dec 14, 2017 2:22:43 GMT -8
When you have invested a lot of yourself and a lot of your time into something that turns out to be unreal and nothing... something that does not materialise where everything you assumed to be true was just a figment of your imagination (who the person is etc.) then how do you pick yourself up from that? I feel like I'm living in a parallel universe like waking up from a coma and not recognising anything yet I have to coexist in this world. When you see the person what is a good mantra for your mind? "I don't know him"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 2:32:07 GMT -8
When you have invested a lot of yourself and a lot of your time into something that turns out to be unreal and nothing... something that does not materialise where everything you assumed to be true was just a figment of your imagination (who the person is etc.) then how do you pick yourself up from that? I feel like I'm living in a parallel universe like waking up from a coma and not recognising anything yet I have to coexist in this world. When you see the person what is a good mantra for your mind? "I don't know him"? A Buddhist would probably say something like "well played sir" (referring to the process of the "game of life" as a kind of illusion). To see through the illusion is the most important part. What you do after is not so important. You have already passed a threshold from which you are hard pressed to return. Attempting to return causes the experience of desire and suffering. It's going with the revelation and flowing forward along the path of least resistance... that is the way! I think that if I were to have a mantra like that for me personally... I would begin with "I don't know myself".
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Elisa
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Post by Elisa on Dec 14, 2017 2:39:07 GMT -8
Thank you.
But if I need to interact with the person I feel I need to acknowledge the feelings brought on by the person's presence. I feel no strength otherwise.
Acknowledging it is not enough for me as I feel awful. I need some strength from somewhere.
Is there a section here for dealing with shame? Because I feel very ashamed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 3:18:52 GMT -8
... I feel no strength otherwise. ... I need some strength from somewhere. ... I feel very ashamed. I like to feel strong. I work out at the gym to feel strong. It's easy to present a strong front. You know what was hard for me? Being weak in front of my partner. Being weak and depressed and going to talk to my pastor about it with as much honesty as I could muster. I had to tell my doctor that I was feeling suicidal. I scared the man because he doesn't hear that a lot. People don't like to advertise their weakness. I believe, the weakest and most cowardly lie people tell each other nearly every day is "I'm fine"... Tell me what strength means to you? You have blood, bones, skin, hair, a whole body that holds together. You are naturally strong in this way. You do not have to do anything special to hold together. No person, apart from yourself, gives you this power. It comes from you, and you alone, without effort. I am ashamed in so many ways. There is probably a special thread somewhere about it. This is as good a place as any to explore those feelings. I think that many people, that look on but rarely speak, could benefit from your courage to talk about your personal feelings of shame. I feel inadequate sometimes because I could not persuade, or cajole, or fix, or convince, by any means, to have my POA stay in relationship with me. Not even as friends (if that were somehow magically possible, but it's not). I spent the last 20 years learning about how to relate to people and I picked apart POA's psyche to the best of my ability in order to find some magical, graceful way to overcome what is an impossible problem. POA has free will to do with as she pleases. So do I. I am free to seek out people that will value me, be in relationship, reciprocate love, spend time with me... A person is free to continue a path in pursuit of illusion and desire as well. You have that strength of will inside of you naturally. If I scolded you and told you to stop... you would fight me with a lot of your strength! You are stronger than you realize.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 3:51:06 GMT -8
Voice: because she has free will and that is what she has chosen...
Me: So what do I do now?
Voice: You can stay here, as you are, or you can go to a different place, you can even go back and talk some more if you have to but once you leave here, you probably will not need to come back here. Not impossible, but... I think you will find all of this becomes very small in a bigger context.
Me: I'm really sad.
Voice: Me too, I tried to talk to her but she could never hear me... It seems that she was miserable here. She might be miserable everywhere. You look pretty miserable too.
Me: *lays there for hours* *looses track of time*
Voice: you can do this forever, but you don't have to if you don't want to.
Me: I'm cold
Voice: find some warmth...
Me: I'm scared
Voice: It's ok to be scared if you feel like you need to. There is nothing here now that can hurt you. I doubt anything can touch you more deeply than what you have already been through.
Me: I just want to cease. I feel so worthless.
Voice: You can feel that way if you want. You have made mistakes worthy of regret. That is in the past now. There is no one here that demands you be any more worthy than you are right now, in this moment. All your worth has already been proven to me.
Me: I just can't forget her face... I can't stop seeing her face... *desperate eyes*
Voice: You will remember, you won't forget. That is what makes you different from her. That is one of the many reasons you could not be together.
Me: I'm so broken-hearted I don't think I can go on...
Voice: You don't have to go anywhere if you don't want to. That too is what makes you different. Your heart was not so hard that it could not be broken. You were able to hear me because you allowed your heart to risk breakage.
... Me: I feel stuck...
Voice: and so you are... I'm not in any rush... take your time...
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Elisa
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Post by Elisa on Dec 14, 2017 4:32:57 GMT -8
I'm not talking about putting up a front. I have no problem being emotionally vulnerable. That is all I have been and I have gone too far that way. I have no self. That's what I mean by strength. Motivation. A vision for my life. A reason to let go of him where he is not the one in control but I am. I don't mind being angry at him as that helps me get over him. It's what I usually do with POAs and it always works. I just find it difficult this time around because I don't see where I have power. I like those youtube videos where people say "if he doesn't want tou he isn't worth your time". That's what i mean by strength. I don't want to waste my life being sad over an not a very nice person. I guess I want the right to call him an not a very nice person.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 5:21:07 GMT -8
I'm not talking about putting up a front. I have no problem being emotionally vulnerable. That is all I have been and I have gone too far that way. I have no self. That's what I mean by strength. Motivation. A vision for my life. A reason to let go of him where he is not the one in control but I am. I don't mind being angry at him as that helps me get over him. It's what I usually do with POAs and it always works. I just find it difficult this time around because I don't see where I have power. I like those youtube videos where people say "if he doesn't want tou he isn't worth your time". That's what i mean by strength. I don't want to waste my life being sad over an not a very nice person. I guess I want the right to call him an not a very nice person.  I find myself a little confused by your process. I can only interpret my feeling as a reflection of your indecision. I'm not making a value judgement. It feels like you have cycles of moving towards and retreat. One of the earliest women in psychology, Karen Horney (pronounced Horn-eye), contributed to a Feminist theory of psychotherapy (not really feminism in the 1st, 2nd,3rd wave, but more of a label for a way of working with women). Here is a slide of some of the things she wrote about. The idea of "Neurosis" has generally been redefined as different anxious and depressive states. Do any of these items reflect your personal experiences? 
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 5:49:16 GMT -8
I'm not talking about putting up a front. I have no problem being emotionally vulnerable. That is all I have been and I have gone too far that way. I was vulnerable too. I was sincere in my intentions towards POA. I wanted to marry her. All I got for showing my heart was a series of stabs to my most vulnerable places. I chose to show them and I received a consequence. Not everyone does this. Some people do. It's very cruel and it's a reflection of her inner state as someone who feels cruel towards men on a daily basis. Now, in my situation POA was determined to destroy our relationship and so was I at some points. We mutually and systematically worked towards hurting one another. If I understand your situation, your POA has not overtly rejected you as a person or a gender or... I don't know. He just has no reciprocated your desire to be in a closer relationship. I've said it before and it made you mad. You are not entitled to any kind of relationship with anyone. Relationship is something that must be given mutually and freely. I was not sure if the first sentence here belonged with the previous thoughts. If you want an external source of motivation, join the army. A drill sergeant will run you until you puke your guts out and then run you some more. He will motivate you... You do not have to desire this motivation. It is imposed upon you or you are insubordinate and face discipline. The military specializes in breaking down an individual's ego and putting it back together in a way which is useful to the government. Interestingly enough, many people find the change empowering, but after the fact. Nobody likes to be forced to change against their will or even against their apathy. I think that you like your freedom. With that freedom comes a natural responsibility as an adult. I think you don't give yourself enough credit. You have a job, you feed yourself, clothe yourself, you have a roof over your head, you travel to and from your work, you have friends that you talk with... You have some things going for you that you may not be acknowledging. The real question is, why are you angry? Are you angry that he did not reciprocate? Flip the genders on that for a second. If a guy was mad at a woman for not reciprocating his affections... I'm also not sure where the power differential comes in here. Why do you need power over him or yourself? What does "power" mean here? You could privately call him anything and personally feel any way (good or bad) about it. Your inner life of attraction, anger, shame, sadness, or even strength will probably not change his lack of engagement or alter his interest level. It sounds like he has made himself clear and you are in the process of accepting this fact. One model goes something like this, Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. Where would you say you are in that list? Sometimes when I consider it, I'm all over the place, angry one day, depressed the next. When I feel my version of strength, I am in acceptance. When I am looking back fondly at the illusion of POA, I'm in denial.
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Elisa
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Post by Elisa on Dec 14, 2017 6:16:01 GMT -8
I just want to say something because you talk about gender a lot. I don't care if a guy is angry at a female crush at all. If you're arguing that wider society thinks it's not okay for one so shouldn't be for another then that's not a rational premise to argue from as it's not about feelings but a social stance. To reiterate I don't care if a guy has a crush and gets angry about it. I understand him for doing so.
You misinterpreted why i got mad before and you're still doing it. I said I am not entitled to anything with him before then you copied what I said and spoke it back to me as if I hadn't said it. The main reason why I got mad is that you implied I was doing sonething that would get me fired by hr which is wrong. You did something like that. We are not the same person.
Power means feeling strong and in control.
Yeh the army is not motivation for me. Motivation for living for getting up. How to be ibterested in doing things. How to feel good about myself etc.
Oh why am I angry? I am angry because I asked if he minded me contacting him or asking questions and he did not respond but he responded to everything else. He should have told me. He then said he doesn't like personal questions but wants to answer non personal questions. I am angry because he kept me hanging on for the ego boost instead of telling me when i asked that we shouldn't contact each other or even that he's busy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 6:52:29 GMT -8
... you talk about gender a lot. ... If you're arguing that wider society thinks it's not okay for one so shouldn't be for another then that's not a rational premise to argue from as it's not about feelings but a social stance. ... Yes it's very true. I talk about gender all the time. I've taken lots of classes on gender psychology and I've read a lot of books about feminism (1st, 2nd, and 3rd wave). Gender is an important distinction. I think it is safe to say that laws surrounding persistent unwanted or unwelcome contact in the workplace (specifically boss to subordinate) apply equally to men and women independently of a political or social opinion. I think the one thing that is clear is that I am having a little difficulty tracking with you. Please correct me as needed. I sincerely do not want to misunderstand. I don't know your specific working condition but, in the states, workplace fraternization is pretty much frowned upon. Work environments differ, but... I'm thinking that it is safe to say that the workplace is not an environment to be seeking intimate relationships. If we look at the definition of an addiction, usually it involves some kind of escalation. I'm not sure what your specific workplace has in place as far as policy goes. I'm wondering what you are trying to control? Are you trying to control your own feelings? Are you trying to control him by getting his attention or reciprocation? If strength for you means motivation and power means strength and control... I'm confused. It feels like a circular thought. Strong = Control = Motivation = Power ? But I do see what you mean about a general lack of clarity between the two of you. Maybe there was one moment where he was figuring it out and he finally arrived at a firm decision about how to interact with you in order to keep himself safe. You got strung along for a moment or two before he decided. That does not mean he owes you some apology or explanation... You know for certain now. You can be sure. I mean, in my situation, I knew for sure over a decade ago and yet, here I am still messed up and thinking about POA. I know just how hard it is to say goodbye to the potential you saw in a possible relationship. That is an illusion. But you had already figured that out...
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Post by paisley on Dec 14, 2017 7:32:53 GMT -8
I think you can be real about it.
“I don’t own/possess him” “He does not owe me attention/affection” “He is not a suitable person with whom to have a romance” “He does not determine my worth” “I am OK without his validation”
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Elisa
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Post by Elisa on Dec 14, 2017 9:23:00 GMT -8
See that's what I mean about power. These 2 quotes:
He is not a suitable person with whom to have a romance
He does not determine my worth.
These 2 give me a sense of power. I think because it give a me a feeling of acceptance and of rejecting him also.
Thanks very much!
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Post by Susan Peabody on Dec 14, 2017 10:05:44 GMT -8
One day at a time . . . First your make a decision that you are ready to fact this. Then you pick yourself up and ask for help. Then you take action. You take the suggestions of others who have gone before you and follow their instructions even if you are terrified and feel frozen in your tracks. Once you try something new and see that it works you try something new. You keep doing this until you realize that recovery real works. Then you wonder what took you so long to get here. You just wonder. You do not feel guilty or wish you had taken another path. You just accept that this was you path and that now you are standing in the light.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:15:43 GMT -8
I think you can be real about it. “I don’t own/possess him” “He does not owe me attention/affection” “He is not a suitable person with whom to have a romance” “He does not determine my worth” “I am OK without his validation” My only reservation about these "Mantra" are that they revolve around "him".... LovelyJune challenged me once to stop thinking about the things POA "does" or the "effect" POA has on me, and instead focus on myself. If I were to adjust these "Mantra" accordingly... “I own/possess myself” “The world does not owe me attention/affection” “there are better and different environments in which to pursue a romance” “I determine my worth” “I am OK”
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Elisa
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Post by Elisa on Dec 15, 2017 0:24:22 GMT -8
Thank you so much. Acceptance that I chose this path also feels empowering. No berating. I think I only feel shame when I see him and he sees me and it's very awkward and I feel "It did not have to be like this. If only I did not create this". But I did. I guess I just have to accept that it's awkward and we are both embarrassed and I cannot change this.
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