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Post by saudade2020 on Apr 25, 2020 9:08:29 GMT -8
Thanks to Susannah and page admins for organizing this whole thing. I am new here, so forgive me for any noob faux pas' or errors. but I dont see a lot of male shares on the boards, so am just gonna throw mine in the ring if thats ok? ....
in ref: to Robin Norwood's books Women Who Love Too Much
Dear Group
The books WWL2M and Letters From… are both profound in their insight.
A very quick bio of me; 36 year old male, healthcare professional from a stable middle class home, where both parents are still married and without substance issues. I am one of 4 siblings; there are no acute mental health or addiction issues in the family as far as I am aware and we were all raised in a seemingly functional and caring household with cousins, aunts, uncles and grand parents all around.
I have had one episode of depression in my 20’s which was brought on by working in an environment I did not enjoy, an unhealthy lifestyle, an immature relationship breakdown, as well as my own immature out-look on life and adult responsibility in general. I addressed some issues in that recovery over a couple years and have had no relapse of depressive episodes since.
For 10 years now I have worked internationally on military style healthcare deployments and for the vast majority of it, I find this very rewarding, but it undoubtedly makes personal relationships very difficult to establish and maintain.
Modern technology and communications do not even work or exist in many of the places I find myself in, often for months at a time. I am quite fiercely independent and often happy in my own company for long periods; I don’t know why, but I have never sought to be “mothered” or “looked after” by anyone. No doubt this is damaging in my personal and professional relationships.
Although I am not an alcoholic (I do drink socially, but use no drugs at all) I have recently started to address issues around sex addiction. My bachelor lifestyle when not on deployment meant I quite easily fell into a trap of multiple casual hook ups which were initially acting like “band aids” for me , but over several years are, I now realise, ultimately destructive and harmful. I accept I am a probably a sex addict and am in the very early stages of addressing this via literature, SLAA meetings (when able) and engaging with a therapist (one general, one specific to SLAA).
My last attempt at a relationship began 3 years ago and was with a woman whose behaviours I could identify on almost every page of Robin’s two books; she is a confirmed woman who loves too much of no doubt. I could sometimes see myself too while reading these books.
But I could only see this after the relationship had ended and was reading them. She was a lawyer, late 20’s, an alcoholic (borderline, but sober by the end of our 2 years together), a regular marijuana smoker (which I encouraged her to quit early on), cigarette smoker, occasional overeater, prone to high stress, anxiety and a perfectionist who was raised in a dysfunctional home. Both her parents were alcoholics throughout her childhood and were finally divorced a few years ago once the 2 children became young adults and had left home for college.
Her mother was only recently sober and anorexic for much of her adult life, but her father is still drinking and completely estranged from one daughter, and only partially in touch with the one I was dating.
She has been emotionally, physically and mentally neglected by her father from birth and obviously carries this trauma with her still. I had no idea of the extent of this and how significant it was at the time I met her.
I almost completely missed all the red flags in our early days together but noticed enough to realise that she needed to work through a significant childhood trauma and recommended she start this by giving up marijuana and engaging with a therapist (neither of which she had had done before) immediately.
I now also realise how much of her father and a chance at redemption I may have represented to her, being a male figure who she could attempt to love, but one who lived a globe trotting itinerant lifestyle who would ultimately leave her at regular intervals (for work), abandoning her and by default behaving selfishly even though I was a professional humanitarian.
In uniform pattern to the books, our relationship developed quite quickly. I was asked to move in to her place after several months together because “it made sense” her words. When I rejected this or appeared reluctant or wanted to wait until our relationship matured a little more, it caused tension between us.
There were many things that caused tension between us; a lot of them I had trouble to understand fully at the time, but Robin’s books give real clarity to the root causes of them now.
However, there is no denying some of our issues were down to my own lack of real life relationship experience and ability to form adult compromise and effective relating. It feels like we both came to this relationship with a good equal chunk of issues that needed to be figured out and addressed.
I should point out that during the relationship I was faithful despite my (at the time) undiagnosed sex addiction. Although I am still coming to understand the exact nature of my addiction and how it manifests, I was not with other women while I was with this last partner. However, when we broke up, I would seek solace in further casual encounters elsewhere very quickly.
So where am I going with this? Just thank you really. The books and groups like this have helped me start to understand a traumatic and painful relationship, and I am now at the beginning of a recovery for my own unhealthy patterns of behaviour which are equally as painful to address and examine.
I do not know what my future holds, but I hope it will be better for having read these books and sticking with it’s recommendations.
I suppose one question I have would be can there ever be any hope of reconciliation between me and my ex partner now that we are both actively engaged in recovery?
Or is that very question a shining example of how far my own recovery still has to go ? haha
We have not spoken in almost a year, but I cannot deny I find that very difficult to maintain and am glad I deleted her phone number in an effort to fight the temptation to reach out to her.
I have been sober from all physical relations for over a month and am not engaging in communication or planning hook ups with any of my previous contacts or attempting to make new ones.
I would love her to read these books and talk to her about them but am aware of how potentially destructive that is. I hope she is still sober, working her program , happ(ier)y and healthy but I can not help missing her. I am ashamed of myself.
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Post by Susan Peabody on Apr 25, 2020 12:36:18 GMT -8
We owe the name of this organization to men. I started my recovery with the book, "Women Who Love to Much." When I hung up some flyers for a support group,, a man wrote on one of them: "Where do the men go?"
I quickly switched the concept of love addiction so the men would be welcome. They have contributed a lot over the years. We have a section on this board for male love addicts and codependents.
At the same time, some men confuse love and sex addiction. Sex addicts are not always in love. They are mostly avoidants trying to substitute sex for emotional intimacy. Love addicts are addicted to either romance, a relationship, or a person.
Welcome to our group.
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Post by Sexlessw on Apr 26, 2020 3:31:18 GMT -8
SauDade2020:
Congratulations on your self work. And realizing what issues you have (had) to get through for YOURSELF. I can imagine you are very busy right now in your work outside of Recovery (re: real world job occupation).
Do not be ashamed of missing your xPoA/xGF. You and she shared a lot. You CARE about her - there is no shame in caring about somebody we felt such a connection with.
You were aware of enough to see the addiction issues she had (observing her family dynamic - sounds exactly like many of the women from WWLTM just jumped off the page) and knowing that you could NOT "fix" them for her. That takes self awareness and - love on your part. Nobody but she can "fix" or get to the bottom of what makes her act as she has.
You asked: "I suppose one question I have would be can there ever be any hope of reconciliation between me and my ex partner now that we are both actively engaged in recovery?"
It's been nearly a year. Do you WANT a reconciliation? If so, why? Ask yourself for what REASONS do you want to reconcile? If she HAS done her self work, she may have a different perspective on the relationship she had with you. It may be a great perspective or she is thankful for the relationship.
IMO, not matter how much you have discovered on your road to Recovery - the books especially, sharing your experiences, your self realizations - she needs to work out her own journey which means discovering the books, sharing HER experiences, her self realizations.
How would you feel if she, RIGHT NOW, contacted you. "Hey SauDade, I've been doing my Recovery work, getting to the bottom of why I act as I do. Can we find a time to meet and chat?" What would you do if she did that? Would you jump at the chance? I'm not saying that's a bad thing. F2F is real with those you've had a relationship with before. You can't deflect/hide like you do in writing or verbally.
The above question is something I ask myself with respect to my xOM. I can honestly say, for myself, I would not want to meet with him because I am finished, done, over, by, past, through the relationship - and him.
If you have ANY insight to share with our group, please post. I think your perspective can help many who are "in the struggle".
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Post by saudade2020 on Apr 26, 2020 6:09:53 GMT -8
Hi sLSW. thanks for your reply; it's full of useful feedback and i know the message you are trying to get across is right. Do i want a reconcilliation? I honestly dont know. I realise how unhealthy and dangerous it would be to even attempt it.
I guess the issue is like you said, i do/did care about this person. for a long time i considered them my closest friend (i dont have many). I am certain that her recovery will take a while (as will mine), and will often be painful. But for me to not speak to someone who is obviously hurting is quite hard.
Especially as I'm a medical professional; classic stereotype alert!! it has been my job for 15 years now to look after people and make sure they're ok. It is incredibly hard to not want to reach out and help this person, or at least make sure they're alright. especially now.
one of my (many) sources of shame is i feel that i often failed this person in that respect while with them. Instead of trying to help them feel better, i was capable of making them feel worse. Given her addiction and untreated trauma there was likely no way i could avoid doing that and the odds of success were stacked against me. Again, i appreciate all this talk of "helping someone" is negligible, and in fact does the opposite; they have to take sole responsibility for their own recovery. and i should focus on my own.
I suppose the other reason i keep circling around reconciling is that despite how awful i make this relationship sound, there was absoulelty genuine affection and tenderness and fun between us. I try very hard not to over romanticize or look back with rose-tinted nostalgia, but it easy to think of how much this person made me laugh and the (many) good times we shared.
it is difficult to think that is lost forever.
does she have a different perspective on our relationship now? again, i am certain she would. Probably one of regret at dating an overseas contractor while she was a borderline alcoholic and therefore not in clear judgement.
SW thanks for replying. I think the truth is, i have very few people in my life i can comfortable and openly talk about this with and these boards are helpful in me hashing this stuff out and attempting to understand it. for that, i am grateful.
Right now, yes, i am safe and well at work, as are the team i'm currently with. I hope this finds you, and all our group members, and their close ones safe and healthy too. Please; stay at home folks
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Post by Sexlessw on Apr 29, 2020 4:34:56 GMT -8
SauDade2020:
Thank goodness you are safe and well IRL (or as William Gibson coined the term in "Neuromancer": "meat space"). And in your field RIGHT NOW. You followed your conscience and your heart when you went into the field. No shame in that.
Listen, she WAS your closest friend. Who else could be sympathetic and understanding to what she is going through at this moment. You've BTDT and wish, so badly, to share your strength, hope and experience with her.
However...this is something she has to do ON HER OWN. She took the first steps (if I read your post correctly) of her own free will. She's an adult person making adult decisions. From what you wrote of her past, oh heck yes does she have a long road ahead of her. Most of that happened long before she met you. She has lots of sifting/digging through her past to get through.
At the time you were with her, did you understand her past - the untreated trauma and addiction issues - and the effect they had on ALL her relationships? If you were unaware, you can't blame yourself for wanting to "help" her. Like you said, it's programmed into you to WANT to help, to fix problems. You've come to the realization you can't "fix" her. Nobody can do that but herself.
Of course you guys shared genuine affection, tenderness and good times - laughter included. You would NOT have been with a person who was miserable, withholding affection and dour. She added to your life and that is a good thing.
Every person we meet in our lives will give us something. Even if we feel at the time it was a "bad" thing. You think, after you've been hurt once or twice, "wait a minute, this keeps happening with SOME people - let me take this opportunity to FIGURE OUT why this is 'bad thing' said person did hurt me." Then you find out your reasons, and say, after the hard work, "Thank you person for a 'bad' thing. You have allowed me to find out who I am and why I act as I do." [this comes after a very, very, very long time]
My FIL once told me quite simply, after I asked why his stepdaughter and her husband were getting a divorce: "Relationships end." This was a revelation to me. We're not stuck in grade school, secondary school or college forever. We change over time. The people we have as friends WILL CHANGE as we age because WE change. The same friends we had in college won't be around forever (for the most part) because we will have moved away, changed jobs, homes, even countries.
We may never see these folks again or have intermittent contact with them. Yet, we continue to remember most of them fondly and the times we shared. Did they add to your life? Most certainly! Did you grow while you were with them? Did these people make you feel okay? Of course they did. But you've moved through that part of your life.
"Lost forever" = maybe not forever and ever, but at this moment in time, the relationship is suspended. IDK what the future holds for her. Nor do you. But I can say that continue on your own path and there may be a time in the future where she contacts you. You may or may not feel the same way. Or maybe she won't contact you, after having MOVED THROUGH her self-work, but she feels love for you and the good things you brought to her.
[As an aside, the question I posed about wanting a reconciliation was a take on one of Howard Halpern's Aphorisms: "If the relationship is still the same in 1, 2 or 5 years, do you still want it?" I turned it around a bit: "If after a long time goes by and your Ex reconnects with you, after both you and she have done self-work and reflection, how comfortable would you be in starting the relationship over?" I answered that one for myself: OH HECK NO!!! for me.]
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Post by saudade2020 on Apr 29, 2020 6:47:44 GMT -8
haha that last line really got me! lol. Thank you slSW
once again, i think your response is exactly that kind of stuff i need to be exploring right now.
I'll try and answer a few of your questions.
while with her did i understand her past and trauma? in short: not really. in those early months together she alluded to some vague difficulty in her relationship with her father in particular, but was open about the fact that her mother was only recently sober. But the full extent of what had been going on for her from birth and into adulthood was completly lost on me. i had no appreciation of how damaging that experience would have been for her nor any of the detail (a lot of it i still dont), or how it would manifest in adulthood. interestingly, i went to say goodbye to her mom a couple days after we'd finished. i got on well and had great fondness for her so i wanted to say farewell; it was during this hour or so long conversation that i started to get a little more insight into how bad things had been in the family home. truly, a watershed moment for me. even though i didnt really know it then, i was starting to put the pieces together.
she took her first steps of recovery on her own: mostly yes. there were a few "rock bottom" moments for her leading up to it, as well as a general feeling that something bigger needed addressing in her life which alcohol wasn't helping with. although i wasnt exactly sure what was going on, i could see from early on that she would likely benefit from talking to a therapist. i recommended one to her; she had stuck with this therapist for over a year when i left, and i would imagine she still sees them weekly. i remember very clearly how she looked coming out of that first appointment when i picked her up afterwards; i was worried, but glad she went. i actively enouraged her to stop smoking pot (again early on), and although i wasnt familiar with how to navigate a relationship with someone who's in recovery from alcohol i was supportive of it. i must confess, i was learning how to do this and made some mistakes along the way e.g. ordering a glass of wine while out at a resturant etc. i know its naive, and i cringe at it now!
re: her past relationships. i tried to not pry too much into them. there had been a few relationships of a couple years or so, but i believe they ended quite acrimonously, detail on them being turbulent was hazy and i decided not to push too much on this. my own history consists of about 2 previous attempts lasting about a year to 18 months, with about 10 years worth of mutlitple casual and no-strings attached style encounters.
going back to your final point. i think you're right. it's just hard letting go, and working through pain/recovery. sometimes change is really enlightening and wonderful; sometimes it's just plain hard!
i say a lot of serenity prayers; the message of which i really love. i watch a lot of sunsets, and stay healthy, and busy (without being avoidant) and keep learning.
Thanks again slSW, it's been really nice to share this with someone; i'm such a stranger in the lives of my friends and family that i'm just not ready to do this with them and I need the anonymity here to work through this. i really hope you're making good on your own progress; given the sage advice and experience you seem to have, i'd say it's a safe bet that you are. so whatever it is you've been doing recently, keep doing it.
take care X
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Post by Sexlessw on May 1, 2020 3:51:37 GMT -8
SauDade2020:
Although this is trite, you are following a bit of advice somebody gave me when I was a girl. "Treat your body like a temple. Do not defile it." Staying healthy, physically and mentally, is exactly what the sages and physicians order.
You will always be learning from this. See something in a book, on television, on the Internet that reminds you of your issues/past relationship? It is a teaching moment for you Now you GET what the authors were talking about. For myself, I continually compile quotes I find helpful to my recovery.
My go-to prayer, aside from the Serenity prayer, which I have shared on the boards before: "Oh Lord, help me to understand that nothing will happen to me today that we cannot work out together." [If you are not religious, substitute "Oh Lord" for something else]
One of my personal aims is to make people think outside of where they are. Sometimes, it's very hard - awful - to hear somebody say, "Hey suffering person! Do this, that and the other & you'll be just FINE AND DANDY if you follow MY advice..." Then you come around, after your own issues, and say, "Hmm. I'm ready to receive some other advice..."
It wasn't until you spoke with her mother that the "light bulb" went off about her past. It's one thing to hear somebody say their experience; it's another to have that experience enhanced by somebody else living in the same house.
You can change the "not really" understanding her past to "I understand her past now." The pieces of her began to fall into place for YOU - pray they are coming together for her now.
Here is where YOU were the HELPER in having seek help for herself. You didn't TELL her. You didn't sit her down, tie her to a chair and have the therapist come in and lecture her. She came to you (if I am reading your response correctly)on her own. And you gave her your therapist's name. I hope too that she is no longer drinking AND seeing the therapist. It's going to be longer than a year - from personal experience for me.
Bottom line: NOBODY can do this for somebody else. Imagine how many PoAs would still be in our lives if we could? Ha!
When she came out of the first appointment, let me guess: she looked like she'd been steamrolled by a piece of heavy road equipment. Down, but not out and ready to get on with it.
Regarding yourself having a glass of wine at a restaurant when she's in recovery: it's not like you were bringing bottles of wine home and drinking one each night in front of her. There comes a point in a person's recovery from alcohol that they feel nothing when others drink. My uncle, who has been sober since 1983 and in the program, told me the hardest times for him NOT to drink was large family celebrations. That to him was his triggering moments. Your xGF may have a different trigger.
You were new to this, but now you have knowledge and have gained it. Cringe now, don't do it again - and you won't.
Somebody's past relationships - like you did - don't pry. ONLY when the other person WANTS to talk to about them is when you can ask the questions. Some relationships are just that: PAST. Not PRESENT.
Your own prior relationships - you are working on understanding your cycles. Maybe you're not the type of person who needs to be attached 100% of the time. No strings attached may have been good for you THEN. Now you're older and thinking what you need for YOURSELF in a relationship. IMO that's a gift your xGF gave YOU.
I can only quote you because this is how I feel: "it's just hard letting go, and working through pain/recovery. sometimes change is really enlightening and wonderful; sometimes it's just plain hard!"
To quote Depeche Mode: "You've got work hard if you want anything at all. Nothing comes easy..." (you can segue that into Lionel Ritchie "Easy like Sunday morning...")
IRL our friends and family really don't know us. Perhaps you share bits and pieces. Many don't understand these relationship and bonding issues because they haven't lived through them. I think it's better to do this with "strangers" who have BTDT. We may not agree with these strangers and their advice, but you know the AA saying: Take what you need, leave the rest.
Thanks for the power vibes you sent. I've been down and out over a xPoA and my xOM. Now, I'm not down and out - but holding my head up and walking proudly through my Land of Indifference. Do me one favor: Do NOT try and read on this board the wah wah boo hoo hoo posts I made about my xOM over the years. Just - oh boy. Who was that woman?
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RoseNadler
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Post by RoseNadler on May 1, 2020 6:15:27 GMT -8
sexlessw said:
“ Do NOT try and read on this board the wah wah boo hoo hoo posts I made about my xOM over the years. Just - oh boy. Who was that woman?”
Actually, it’s good to read posts people made early in recovery and contrast them with the same person’s posts later in recovery. You’ve come a long way. That’s the kind of thing that gives me hope, when I wonder if I’ll EVER be healthy enough.
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Post by saudade2020 on May 3, 2020 3:40:51 GMT -8
its been really awesome to get into some of this stuff with you all a bit. i really am very grateful for what's been discussed so far.
I have a feeling i will likely check back in on this thread regularly if it seems like i need reminding of some of its lessons.
i'm on a little hiatus while travelling, so am taking some time to recharge in between work projects. it may only be a week of chill time, but i'm reading, sleeping, doing a little volunteering, checking in with support groups etc. all that good stuff which helps put us in a better place to work through these situations right?
i realize none of these things in isolation are "cures" for addressing my recovery, but am hopefully at least taking baby steps in the right direction.
am pretty exhausted right now, but am certain i'll be ok in a couple days.
i'll keep an eye on the boards though, and again, thanks for everything
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Post by Sexlessw on May 3, 2020 4:20:34 GMT -8
SauDade2020:
Have fun on your hiatus. Recharging is what is RECOMMENDED. Sleeping, reading - hopefully nothing too romantic - ha ha - and you doing YOU is where it's at. Yes. All you've mentioned is putting you in a better place - or getting you TO A better place.
I agree with what Rose Nadler said - even though it may appear contradictory. I meant don't read MY prior posts - whew. Talk about Walls o'Text writ on and on. I have my own FILES and FILES of "journaling" that I wrote during my "relationship" with my xOM. If I want to take a walk back - I'll be spending hours reading the same thing over and over. This is just in my experience.
It's great to look back at what you wrote, if you wrote anything. If you haven't, it's worth it to do a Pro Versus Con list of the relationship. Or Positive Versus Negative List. Those can be enlightening.
When you are able, please come back and post. I have a feeling you are moving through this and will reach a good outcome FOR YOURSELF.
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Post by saudade2020 on Feb 24, 2021 12:18:31 GMT -8
Hello again LAAI family
it is almost a year since my first post on this thread and I felt like checking in again. I hope everyone is healthy and well and made it through what must have been a helluva year for us all, so many stressors in such short a period; I really do hope anyone reading this has made it through relatively unscathed.
I was prompted to revisit this after finishing a book today. A novel; Essays on Love by Alain De Botton. it took a little while to get into it, feeling a bit like a by the numbers boy meets girl thing at the start, with the inevitable storm clouds gathering.
But the last 30 or so pages really struck a nerve and brought me back here today.
Time, distance and perspective a year or so on from my original post is a nice place to be. reflecting on a year ago, and what was going on in the 2 years prior to that now looks, kinda like a farce.
A "dance", as the author of WWL2M might say. a ridiculous and unhealthy dance at that.
as painful as that period felt at the time and its immediate aftermath, i now look at it... breathe a huge sigh of relief and think "god! maybe i dodged a bullet there" haha
i dont think i hold any ill will to my ex. i hope i dont. i dont think i did at the time; it was just hard trying to navigate something i didn't really understand while caught up in the storm of it. realistically, i dont think there's any healthy way i could have stayed. the situation would have undoubtedly snowballed for both of us. *the potential scenarios for how it might have panned out if i did stay are myriad and i have explored them; suffice to say, they're all bad.
for a long time, i really wanted to persevere with it and make it work (typical pragmatic man alert!) despite the glaringly obvious reasons as to why it wouldnt.
so i continue to hope that she is well and working through all the trauma that has been like an albatross around her neck pretty much her entire life. i am still sorry i didnt help her with it as much as i feel i could have done; but i really do think people need to do this work on their own; not with some kind of savior-complex significant other trying to prop them up through it. i think its just too much for most people to do.
so i spent most of the year continuing to travel with work, racking up all kinds of interesting roles across the globe. during a stint at home in late August, i met someone. a friend of a friend. I had absolutely no preconceptions before meeting them. didnt even know what they looked like. didnt really even care.
a friend of mine just said "hey, wanna grab dinner with my friend X some time? i think you'd get on". and we did.
is it creepy that i have noticed a world of difference in this new dating experience with X? although i went into it in an open minded and amiable way, my potential red flag spidey-sense was on high alert for a repeat performance of what i'd just been through. 6 months on and it's still all pleasantly chill... which is a pretty nice place to be.
it really doesnt feel great to compare, but i struggle not to, it just seems to be so free of the anxiety and high-drama of my last experience that it also prompted me to write today. this is a person who does not project any guilt or worry on to me, or make me feel bad when i go away for a month at a time. i do not have to reassure and assuage a long laundry list of anxieties that i have to piece together from a life time of emotional neglect and abuse.
i think the closest we've come to crossed-words was due to her driving technique being similar to that of partially sighted octogenarian, but i am aware we're only 6 months in so there's plenty more scope.
but the point i'm making is that this feels a world away from my last experience... a world away in a more positive sense.
i dont wanna come across as smug and holier than thou with a new beau', it's just very different from before, and i think (i keep using this word) healthier.
its just calmer, and easier. and that suits me right down to the ground. her too i think.
so now, i just look try and look out for my own red flags. Am I being a douche bag? am I being fair? projecting? not respecting boundaries or disrespectful? i'm trying not to be. when im home we're together a lot; but not in each others pockets 24/7. i try not to think too far ahead; just enjoy the present, and not get morose over the past (thats why i write here instead).
anyway, i feel i'm about to go in rambling-mode.
have any of you been through something similar to this? I hope i still have a solid grasp on reality; i dont feel like i'm getting lost on naive dreams.
I really just wanted a space to revisit some of the themes here.. but a year on. it feels pretty good.
I hope you're all pretty good too Love Saudade
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RoseNadler
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Post by RoseNadler on Feb 25, 2021 7:41:33 GMT -8
It’s good to see you here again, and thank you for the update. It’s great to hear that things have improved.
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Post by saudade2020 on Feb 27, 2021 5:54:42 GMT -8
Hi Rose great to see you're still on these boards; thanks for your feedback last year. a yeah can really make a difference right?
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RoseNadler
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Post by RoseNadler on Feb 27, 2021 17:22:01 GMT -8
Yeah, I’m still on the boards. I’m hanging in there!
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