jazz
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by jazz on May 16, 2009 15:20:32 GMT -8
Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this forum, in fact, this is my first post even though I have been reading other posts for the last few days.
I've learned a lot about LA on this site and I have come to realise that I am definitely a torchbearer and I have been all my life. Even in elementary school I felt I 'needed' someone to like or else there was no point in getting through the day. I even used to say exactly that which now makes me shudder thinking about it.
In my adult life I ended up falling in love with a narcissist whom I allowed to abuse me for years. I would say that during that relationship I was more of an OLA than a torchbearer, but since it ended I have become a torchbearer in every sense of the word. Partly because I always had it in me, partly because it was the safest way to love after my crushing experience with what I was confusing to be 'love.'
Since my ex and I broke up seven years ago I have had two affairs with married men and a slew of relationships with younger men. The only commonality being, of course, that they were all unavailable. Yet I obsess about them, fantasise about them and I seem to have a really difficult time stopping this destructive behaviour even though I am aware of what I'm doing (I won't say I can't stop because that's negative reinforcement and part of the problem).
I'm constantly preoccupied when I'm with friends and family and hate to admit this, but I even leave social situations just so I can come home, be alone, and sigh... obsess about my fantasies.
I know it starts with self-esteem and I tell myself positive affirmations and I have also stopped trying to replace one addiction with another (looking for the next guy to get my mind off my POA), but it's so difficult.
What makes this form of LA so difficult, in my opinion, is that nc is not enough since the issue is not contact, but fantasy! It's my mind that is making me crazy at this point, not necessarily another person.
I don't feel as out of control as my OLA relationship, but all other aspects of my life are suffering. I'm in therapy, I'm taking medication, but I keep falling in to the same patterns just when I think I'm making progress.
It's so frustrating and nc is not the answer, but part of the problem.
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jbaysmom
Junior Member
Newcomer Greeter
Posts: 66
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Post by jbaysmom on May 18, 2009 9:05:33 GMT -8
Welcome! Keep reading and posting! There are so many people who can relate. If nothing else it just seems to help me to write it out on this board and to read other peoples struggles. It kind of gets me out of my own head! Hang in there!!
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Post by brightside on May 19, 2009 16:04:35 GMT -8
Hi Jazz. I am new here, too and am wondering if NC works for torchbearers. Like you I tend to start out as an OLA and then turn into a torchbearer. I recently ended a relationship with someone I believe to be a narcissist and have had NC for 10 days, but I think about him most every waking second. Prior to this we had a time of NC contact for 7 weeks and I thought of him obsessively every day for those 7 weeks. I am wondering if NC does not work for torchbearers then how to find relief/recovery?
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Post by Susan Peabody on May 19, 2009 17:04:51 GMT -8
Since Torchbearers can only transfer, I suggest you create a phantom lover and transfer your affection to him. You can also do this with your Higher Power. You do this through personification.
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Post by roz2008 on May 19, 2009 21:38:48 GMT -8
Thank you for this suggestion. I wil give it a try. I sincerely wish to be free of getting deeply caught up in fantasies.
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Post by brightside on May 20, 2009 7:57:03 GMT -8
Hi. Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure how this "phantom lover" thing works, but I will research more about it and give it a try.
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Post by roz2008 on May 20, 2009 13:47:10 GMT -8
I just had a lightbulb moment.  That's all I CAN do...is transfer. I've been trying to stop something I have no power over. I CANNOT stop my mind from the fantasies and they just transfer from person to person.  I want to be free of this. |
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Post by Susan Peabody on May 20, 2009 15:26:20 GMT -8
Some phantom lovers are movie stars.My first phantom lover was a handsome man. I framed a picture of him that I had someone draw for me.My second phantom lover was Christ. I wrote him a poem and kept a picture on my alter.brightertomorrow.net/poemawaitedsuitor.htmMy third phantom lover was a beautiful woman whom I called Spirit.I downloaded a picture of a fairy and framed it for my alter.Today I don't have a phantom lover. I just fantasize about my partner who died.I will always daydream. I learned to do this as a child when I had to stay in the hospital for 6 weeks. Later I used daydreaming to avoid the pain of my childhood.The trick is to stop fantasizing about real unavailable men.
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Post by roz2008 on May 23, 2009 2:02:14 GMT -8
I spoke to my sponsor about this. She suggested that creating a phantom is like giving near beer to the alcoholic...not really dealing with the problem.
I'm to use steps six and seven, and ask God to remove this defect of character...that of fantacization.
I suppose the other would be a progress step.
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Post by frost on May 23, 2009 3:10:59 GMT -8
I try to talk myself down from the fantasy. I have a recurring fantasy that a beautiful young and rich model falls in love with me - it's the male version of the Prince Charming fantasy. This fantasy is addressing wants and needs in me as well as addressing fears. So I sort of examine the fantasy - I have fear of losing my job and I also am lazy - so that is where the wealthy part comes in. I talk to my higher power and admit that I am afraid, I surrender my fear to my higher power. I admit that I am lazy, but I concede that it is God's will for me to work. Sloth is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Even in the Garden of Eden - God has work for Adam and Eve to do ! (besides being fruitful and multiplying  ) So I surrender my laziness as well as my attitude of discontent and willfulness. I know that I want to be loved and cared for, I want to be able to love and care for, and share my life with a woman, I also have a fear of being alone. I surrender that fear of being alone. I address the loneliness by surrendering my inclination to do anything about it right now - my attempts to ease my loneliness have not been good for me, they have not been consistent with what I know God's will for me is (getting involved in a long distance emotional affair with a married woman). The loneliness part - wanting to be desired and wanting affection - I have to trust in Higher Power, trust that God will take care of me. And when I talk to myself this way, I am able to break out of fantasy and it does take the edge off of the neediness I feel. |
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Post by Susan Peabody on May 23, 2009 17:54:18 GMT -8
LAA is not an abstinence program like those for alcoholics. It is more like a food addiction. Eating but finding healthy substitutes for the old junk food you used to eat. I can only say what worked for me. I was a hard core love addict and needed to transfer to something harmless. I could not just stop fantasizing. What works for some people does not work for others. You can follow the advice of your sponsor and if it does not work try the LAA solution. |
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Post by roz2008 on May 24, 2009 3:36:21 GMT -8
When this 'Torchbearer' thread came up, it just so happened that I gave my 5th step to my sponsor a few days before. Many character defects came out of it, along with amends that will need to be made in the future. I suppose transeferring would be for me progress towards stopping unhealthy fantasizing. I too belong to OA and had to slowly progress towards eating healthier foods. I do abstain from some altogther, and it's a miracle how God removed them. I want God to remove this fanticizing thing too. Since I read the 6th step in the AA 12&12 (which I'll read a lot), I have not fantacized about my instructor. I also did a 12 step excercise writing on it and saw the insanity of my thought patterns. He's married, not my religion, 6 years younger, is not compatible with me in many ways...it's just insane for me to think we would be a couple!!!  Steps 6 and 7 seperate the men from the boys as it says. I desire to stop these childish fantasies. Only God can remove them, I CANNOT and am POWERLESS. |
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Post by Susan Peabody on May 24, 2009 13:06:04 GMT -8
Try to avoid transferring to an unavailable "real" person. Try transferring to your Higher Power.
My ideal man, for instance, loves children and is very spiritual (as represented by the dove).
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Post by nickie on May 28, 2009 22:41:41 GMT -8
below is a borrowed prayer from somewhere on the internet that i use as my own 3rd step prayer in order to transfer to my Higher Power and off PoA.
i CAN shift my paradigm by using alanon 'i statements' in my head and just plain stop juicing my LA active addiction fantasizing. as a torchbearer, my thinking is more vital to address then my behavior since there's rarely, if ever, anyone physically there. fantasy is as deadly for me as compulsive sexual acting out might be for someone else.
i transfer off PoA and onto my HP by PAUSING, noticing the obsession, detaching off the obsessive thinking and then using this prayer:
"Thank You for the many wonderful ways that You break through to me.
Sometimes, what I "think" gets in the way of what is true.
I come now to the Source of life to learn about life.
I release my preconceptions and embrace the true splendor within.
I release my own willfulness and accept Your will.
Your truth is greater than my wildest dreams.
Thank You. Thank You. Thank You!
So it is
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Post by Susan Peabody on May 30, 2009 18:17:09 GMT -8
Good point. But usually our desire to connect with a real human being overrides our phantom lover, but it is tricky. My phantom lover was Christ and I easily put our relationship on the back burner for a real person. Transference to a phantom lover is NOT FOR EVERYBODY, just the die hard torchbearers. You could build a case for this keeping our fantasy addiction alive, but I have never had any success with turning my brain off. Switching to thoughts that keep me out of trouble is the best I can dol
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Post by rio6789 on Nov 8, 2009 8:34:54 GMT -8
Hi all, I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts/shares on this thread........I am very new to the idea of myself being a torchbearer (like, 2.5 days!) but, it is the truest thing I've known in my whole life so far, and so it has helped me immensely to know that there is a name for the problem I've had my whole life....... Currently, trying to weigh NC vs. LC........I'm married with 4 kids, and PoA is married too, with 3 kids......I'm quite close to his wife, and our kids are close too.......I've come to play marriage counselor for them (each confiding in me), and so this whole thing is really weird right now.......my last contact with PoA was 2.5 days ago, via e-mail--an apology to a prior e-mail I sent him revealing my attraction to him........he had replied with a very direct, honest, decent, noble e-mail, saying this could not continue, that he would love to be my friend, that I mean the world to his wife........I just about died.....and it started my search online for what it was that could be making me so insane......I'm in OA already.....and it's only now that I see I was using food as a phantom lover......bc food never rejected, supplied unconditional love, and gave me similar euphoric states..... Currently, trying to figure out what is real and what is illusion in my life.......for today, it felt good to pick out one of my husband's shirts and wear it.......loose, flowy, and REAL.......it was nice not to have to wear something that stuck to me, bc I know where my intentions go, I then plan on going outside, and seeing what kinds of attention I can get.....yesterday too, I took my youngest daughter (18mos) for a walk outside, and whenever I saw a man approaching, I just looked down or away.......couldn't let myself get caught up with a face that seemed friendly, or attractive etc. it felt good to take care of myself in this way....... I'm worried that NC makes me think too much of what he might be thinking, of my not contacting him........it feels like I'm giving that too much power.......I feel like he's going to think he had so much of an effect on me, that I can't even see him in passing, or with his wife/family..... so, I'm just going to see how this goes....for now.... will keep you all posted......thanks for everything  |
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Post by geedee on Nov 8, 2009 9:37:02 GMT -8
i was in a triangle. my husband, me and my POA. i was really jealous of this ex affair partner he told me about. that's what triggered my addiction I think as I had always been monogamous.
then his wife threw him out because she found out about his affair with his ex (it had actually ended a year before POA got involved with me over the internet. he had contacted both his ex and me thru a social networking site that reunites old schoolfriends. )
when I realised that he might suddenly be available I freaked. I thought I was just really upset for him because i could feel his pain but I think reality had really started to strike at that point. my fantasy looked as if it might just be possible but i didn't want to end my marriage.
the one occasion when my POA and I got together in the real world was to prove to my POA that if our spouses died - both had been very ill - we would be together. i certainly didnt want an ongoing affair. but at this stage I was hooked and no matter how hard I tried I kept going back
then his wife took him back and they decided to make a go of it.
i was ready to let go at that stage even tho I was feeling terrible and dreading the umpteenth withdrawal but he felt he could have his cake and eat it.
so now I was in a second triangle. Unlike my POA, I became insanely jealous of his spouse and things were just getting more and more painful for me. the fantasies got wilder and more extreme with me and in the meantime his sexlife with his wife was also sounding more daring. The whole thing just got totally out of control.
anyway, bottom line?
i had no right to be in his life and he had no right to be in mine. I don't know if you've read my story but I was so out of control that I was seriously considering satisfying his fantasy for us all to get together in the real world and have a threesome or even foursome with our spouses.
that's when i hit rock bottom and found this forum.
keep away from their marriage and give up the 'friendship'. you are not thinking straight and you'll find that if you really want to recover and come back to your senses you will have to end this toxic relationship as soon as you can.
i didn't want to hurt my POA and he didnt want to lose me either. but you CANNOT have your cake and eat it. get out and away from your obsession as soon as you can. I've been there and it nearly killed me.
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Post by rio6789 on Nov 8, 2009 10:55:20 GMT -8
hi greta,
I appreciate your comments........but, still am not very sure about completely getting away.....my PoA has never reciprocated (not that this makes my situation unique or special)......
thanks again though......will keep posting
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Post by lotus on Nov 8, 2009 11:21:39 GMT -8
I tend to agree with greta. Consider that you might have caused harm to their relationship. If you are not healthy, I don't think you should be influencing them.
Also, because you are not relating to them in a healthy way, I don't think it is helpful for your own well being to be friends with them.
Tell them you have to take time out to take care of yourself and they will understand. If they don't, they were never good friends to begin with.
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Post by Bluejay on Nov 8, 2009 16:51:56 GMT -8
Rio6789, your situation sounds a little like mine. My POA was a good friend of mine. We are both married to men. Our families were close, our kids best friends. Somehow I got hooked on her and became very obsessive. It was both ecstacy and agony for 18 months. The wonderful part of feeling like you're in love - the sky is bluer, etc. Limerance is a real high. The hard part was realizing that she was unavailable on multiple levels. Not only does she have a husband, but an extremely close (weirdly close, too close) BFF from whom she was inseparable. Oh, the pain involved was immense.
We've now had NC for 6+ months. I don't speak to my POA or her BFF. Part of the reason is because I know I will NEVER get what I want and it was too hard being with my POA or with her and her BFF. I was obssessed and jealous all the time. NC has allowed me to reclaim my life and manage my addiction, that's why it's important.
I honestly don't see how the status quo or LC will work in your case. NC isn't ideal, but it is probably you're best path.
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iwant2bfree
New Member
"And this TOO, shall pass......"
Posts: 25
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Post by iwant2bfree on Dec 19, 2009 19:39:26 GMT -8
Hi guys! I know I am a TB. The oNLY way I have ever been able to leave a relationship and stop obsessing over the last one (if I was addicted to 'him') was to replace him with one that was almost just like him. The problem here is, my sick, ideal, fantasy guy is a narccissist. What do I do? Any suggestions? Inner child work first and continue with the steps?
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Post by walkingonwater on Dec 22, 2009 11:22:27 GMT -8
One thing that helped me recently when I was getting carried away with fantasising was to repeat over and over 'the truth will set me free' which is taken from the Bible, Jesus said it. I guess I see fantasising is untrue - it's not real, and repeating that seemed to drum it in.
Also I did find 'obsessive love' by susan forward quite helpful.
My fantasising isn't anywhere near as bad as it used to be. Recently it's switched to just ruminating about past events or what I should do etc relevant to my POA. Some improvement though on how it makes me feel - not as many highs or lows! Still some way to go though :-(
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Post by looking4happiness on Jan 7, 2010 12:07:41 GMT -8
No offense...but as you said yourself...contact is not really the issue for torchbearers. So unfortunately no contact is not a cure. But it has helped me to gain some distance and not obsess as much about them.
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Woof
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by Woof on Jan 28, 2010 11:55:01 GMT -8
hi all, I am a newcomer and codependent, fantasy, torchbearing love addict. There Whew, I got it out. I just found out about being a torch bearer this week and it brought me to my knees. I did not have a label for my obsessive thoughts for years about the "perfect love" I left behind. And I had so much parallizing shame about telling my wife about this. So I kept this secret obsession to myself. It actually helped me get through the first 5 years of recovery while my wife was still in the process of forgiving me the affairs. This pattern of the torch continued to drive us apart as the torch stayed young and exciting in my mind and my wife aged and grew less in need of me. I needed the drama and romance that my torch fantasy always had and I replayed every place and good feeling I could remember.
This continued till I decided to act on the desire to reconnect with my true love (the torch girl, lets call her Ginny). I told her I still loved her. Thought she would jump into my arms. What came as a shock was that she had someone else. "what the hell?" I thought. Did not she say in all those letters to me after our break up that she would wait forever! This did not sit well with my fantasy of True Love lasts forever and her being my Soul Mate. So I tried again after this one more time with email but she dumped me. I actually felt that she still had my heart. That is what we used to say to one another: Who has your heart?... So I went along licking my wounds for another year until I found another person to rescue: lets call her Abby. She kissed me during our first meeting and then tried to break off after a week because I was married. But then a miracle happened (so I thought). The burning torch for Ginni was extinguished. I even told Abby this. Then we started a very obsessive 7 month affair that just stopped, partly because of the torch concept I became aware of. I write this casually but there is so much pain in the whole story. It made me cry all those years when I remembered Ginni the little girl I left behind and how happy I would have been if I had gone another way. Ok I am done writing about this for today. Thanks group. I would appreciate feedback.
n.
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Post by Angel on Jan 28, 2010 21:07:19 GMT -8
HOW
Honesty
Openness
Willingness
Stop the triangles - no recovery in triangles
Be honest (you already seem to be getting there)
Be Open about your disease and what you are doing (on the forum where it is safe or in a safe meeting)
Be Willing to work the steps, get a sponsor, do journalling, read what you can, be there for others on the forum, maintain n/c or L/c whichever applies.
Be patient! It is about progress not perfection.
Welcome
Angel
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Post by ok2bme on Feb 6, 2010 18:17:10 GMT -8
I have used thought stopping tips to redirect my obsessive thinking. Shortly after finding the site I had been praying & felt that my obsession/addiction had been lifted...OH HAPPY DAY!!! Since then I have got small ideas about him & will allow myself to think about things related to what happened & recovery but I will NOT allow myself take walks through fantasy lane concerning him. Whether it's a goofy word game or a prayer, I've just made it my bottom line to keep my thoughts on a short leash when it comes to him, period. It will lead to torment, acting out, & obsession if I allow thoughts of him to get away, there is no doubt.
I have not had a phantom lover in this process, but if there ever comes a time the leash breaks or I am blank with the games or prayers I would use that technique. Not as a new addiction but as a temporary soother till things get back in check again.
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Post by Angel on Feb 6, 2010 22:09:56 GMT -8
"So, in a nut shell ?NC might get you off the rollercoaster for a while ?but I want to be out of the theme park all together."
Ha ha, I love this! I know what you mean. I worry about my transferring to another POA so I am not dating but I worry that if I meet someone the whole rollercoaster ride will start up again too. I guess it is much the same sort of thing.
I guess that having a phantom lover is one way and may work for some people. One of the things that seems to work for me is the thought that I am protected, comforted and cared for by two male angels. Sounds weird yes but it seems to work for me. I am not sure what happened within me as i was growing up to make me feel that there is a hole there that I filled with POA but it is there. Once I started to visualise my angels it was strange, the hole disappeared!
Perhaps I am getting in touch with my mascualine side, perhaps I am getting in touch with my HP. Fantasising about a phantom POA is externalising for me and I also worry about transferring to a real person or just getting lost in a dream. But my two angels are THERE. I imagine that I FEEL them. Much the same way that a teddy bear or a blanket gives comfort to a child. I can even start to compare men in my life with my angels. For example last night I was at a function and a guy walked past me and knocked my hand. It rather hurt and the cup I was holding was knocked from my hand and the contents spilled on the floor. He turned and said sorry but I noticed that he didn't help me pick up what was spilled.
I looked at him and thought; 'wow that isn't sexy! Just walking away like that!' I realised by having my visualisation of my angels I have 'expectations' of how I am to be treated. It is OK for guys NOT to treat me like that but I am not interested in the ones that are like that. Prior to him doing that I kinda thought he was cute, now I have higher expectations. It is a little bit like re-parenting myself from the father/daughter side.
thoughts anyone?
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Post by geedee on Feb 7, 2010 3:12:28 GMT -8
hi finem,
just wanted to welcome you. I thought my POA was a one off. by initiating NC I managed to get away from him. 4 months now.
I'm processing the pain and the grief from my childhood and dealing with stuff i had never even thought of before discovering I was an OLA.
want out the theme park? hmmm...think we're stuck with being what we are. Once a LA always a LA. We have to learn to deal with 'our bottle'.
the thing is that we are surrounded by people that could potentially become close friends or even lovers if you/they are available.
Out of fear of once again falling prey to our addiction, does that mean we have to stop caring about, getting close to or loving people altogether? what a depressing life that would be. But I don't know the answer. i really don't. finding the balance is bloody hard tho'.
greta
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Post by primrose on Feb 7, 2010 3:50:58 GMT -8
Hi finem, NC is just one tool in the LAA toolbox, and I completely agree that it on its own isn't enough, that's why we have the steps to make sure that we do grow. My POA has effectively gone NC with me for the same time I've done it with him, has he grown? Changed? Nope! I have though. I've had 2 years of emotional growth thanks to recovery.
I relate to your mistrust of a phantom lover, I was very suspicious of it when I first read about it (and that was very recent, I'm new to this site) and I too want to be healed. I've been working on myself in therapy and recovery since I was 24 (am 38) am very serious about my process and being well. I see it as my life's work to live to my potential and live a fulfilled and happy life. I'm dedicated to healing my childhood pain, it's a very important part of my life.
I came to this site because I was struggling with still being obsessed with my POA despite a lot of work in SLAA. And this new (to me) idea of a phantom lover seemed, well unpalatable. But I was humbled by my addiction to my POA and it's made me willing to try just about anything. And this works. So I'm willing to do it. Ultimately, I don't want any phantom lover (I even dislike the phrase sounds soo gothic novel heroine) but if it works so I can unhook myself from obsession, I'll do it. And I am.
If it works for you, do it, if not, don't. I was very anti-obsession of any kind coming from slaa, but I had to be honest with myself about fantasy. Two years into recovery, for one week a month (around my cycle) I breathe my POA, it's early withdrawal all over again and I am literally handing over his name in my head to god like a mantra. I needed something more than just prayer and I'm finding the phantom lover (for now) works. Best. Primrose.
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Post by Angel on Feb 7, 2010 5:49:40 GMT -8
Dear Perfectday,
I like the idea of using Angels as our phantom lovers in a non sexual way. I have a photo my aunt sent me of a bodybuilding guy in nothing but a pair of white shorts and a pair of angel wings!!! He is currently on my alter too.
Underneath is a saying which I really like "Angels can fly cos they take things lightly!"
It is there to remind me that we make life complicated and difficult but our angels are free of all that.
I think by making them our (non sexual) phantom lovers, we get all the good stuff without the intensity and the complications. I get a great fix of 'pure' love when I think about my angels.
I can understand why some people feel more at home with angels than with their HP. I guess we feel that angels are more personal - ours and ours alone whereas we have to share our HP with everyone and in our minds we think "Wow how can HP have the time for little old me?" Whereas, well angels our all ours. Perhaps that is the essence of a phantom lover. We create them and we don't have to share them with anyone else.
I mean when did you hear of a phantom lover being unfaithful and running away with someone else!!!!
LOL
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That's all I CAN do...is transfer. 
) So I surrender my laziness as well as my attitude of discontent and willfulness.
