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Post by nickie on Jun 5, 2009 0:31:36 GMT -8
imo, part of the way out of love addiction has been greatly illuminated in the book 'cinderella and her sisters- the envied and the envying' by ann and barry ulanov. this book's approach to psychological theology seems uniquely targeting to torchbearers and i'd like to share a few excerpts as i've gleaned soo much inspiration for the possibility of LA recovery within its pages.
this book is rigorously both academic and experiential... not everyone will like it. i did not relate to 'envy' at all until i read this book and began to understand that my very banishment of envy was connected to my inability to receive my good.
p.100
"the envier's refusal of the good produces devastating effects on everyone's spiritual integrity. the envier refuses the goodness involved in simply being the creature he or she is meant to be. the envying, do not want their own person but someone else's. they want to return the being with which they have been saddled and substitute a carbon coy of someone else's."
p.106
""rejection of the self keeps us envious, and envy keeps us rejecting. ... there is a literal failure of the imagination involved in the rejection of our central self. we fail to see the god image, the person image at our core. we develop that habit of refusal of ourselves which was what the middle ages meant by sloth. this idleness of the spirit may be accompanied by any number of other energetic undertakings. we may be zealous in the pursuit of a career, of pleasure, of sexual fun and games. but what we are after in this case in not our career,our pleasure, our sexuality. ... we seek what belongs to someone else and altogether reject what is ours."
p.117
"the envied object exists as an archetypal symbol, not as a real part of ourselves, so it always pulls us beyond ourselves toward the other it represents. and envy may really be our first recognition of the desirability of that other- whether it is an infant looking at a mother's breast <s.i.k. object relational psychology> an adult of one sex contemplating and adult of the other sex, or a soul moving toward god."
p.119
"envy makes us abandon the good. our reaction does not, fortunately, succeed in destroying everything good for us but it does cast relations to goodness in negative terms. ... we move from envy of another's positive quality of being, to envy of the good itself, from hunger for the good to desire to possess it, or to make it appear less desirable. failing in those efforts, we come in our dread of everything good to attack it outright, trying to kill it. the plight of the good and the positive-the pure of heart- in the face of envy is endless suffering and sorrow."
p.120
"we reduce ourselves to what we fail to possess, turning away from what is really alive in us. all we can see are the images of our desire. we are what we are not. we are all envy. we refuse to pay ourselves serious attention except in those troublesome images of what we do not have. and those we can only scorn, as the ugly sisters deride cinderella as christ is mocked as king of the jews. such scorn splits away from our consciousness the unconscious energy that urges us on to new possibilities of being. we diminish ourselves. we are diminished."
p.82
"psychological explorations: ...
when the analysand feels a hunger for the good and does not identify it as a lost possession nor one stolen by another, but lets the good be, it can be found in the relationship. when the analyst holds on to the good and does not identify with it, its archetypal nature emerges more clearly as a transcendent reality, existing in its own right. this brings great relief to both analyst and analysand, because positive qualities can be relied on to be there and do not have to be acquired or managed as one's personal property.
the envied one does not have to fear assault and robbery and the envier does not have to feel withheld from, intentionally deprived. goodness is there between them for both to feed on." <my italics>
soo, this book helps me learn how to embrace my good, relate to my good, begin to receive good and BE my own unique form of good. how to develop a container to with hold the tension of the opposites within my own soul, my own psyche, my own spirit.
theological psychology, using the vehicle of archetypal storytelling (cinderella,) has made an avenue for me to uncover the machinations of my torchbearing. it has not healed me but it has greatly consoled me in that there is a viable understanding and a way out which smarter people then me have already put to pen.
when i am most discouraged or demoralized by my two steps forward one step back with LA recovery, i revisit this book and reacquaint myself with how far i have come in terms of changing the place i pray from.
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Post by cheri on Jun 5, 2009 3:16:23 GMT -8
Thanks nickie for sharing this.
This remind me a novel called " Gone with the wind" which I read when i was teenage. Scarlett envy Melanie, Scarlett is LA, She chase Ashley. She is compulsive, childish, lost her sense/ discernment in the passion of love. Melanie is quiet, supportive, have good sense of herself and her surrounding.
Of course, Scarlett have her own good quality, she is strong, courageous, intelligent, beautiful...
what we envy is our "positive shadow", a part of ourselves that we haven't recognize or bring to light yet, when I found I am impressed by others quality, It brings me attention that I need to develop this in myself.
In my childhood, I was very impressed by my sister and one of my cousin, they deal things very maturely, always use right words in right circumstance, and when they grow up, they are so easy to have happy family...what I struggle for years seems a piece of cake for them
Yes, we need to pay attention of qualities we already have, and develop qualities that we don't have.
The works of my recovery seems to develop the qualities I envy others in my childhood...
Divine power always lead us to wholeness, our very nature, no matter how tough the journey will be...
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Post by judy on Jun 5, 2009 4:12:55 GMT -8
Wow. VERY interesting. Thanks for printing that nickie. I am going to read through it again.
So true about "I am what I am not".
Thanks again!
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Post by presence on Jun 14, 2009 15:07:17 GMT -8
Geez Nickie this great. I am so glad you posted this. I was getting so lost in the book. I'm still struggling with the container metaphor or whatever....The language seems so abstract, but the pieces I AM understanding easily seem to ring so true. I'll keep at it. And like Judy, I'm going to re-read this.
Today's sermon at church was about chasing pleasure, then money, then achievement, then even wisdom in an effort to fill ones soul. A chapter out of "The Humanity of Jesus" (I think that's the title) spoke about being where you are....about how Jesus accepted Himself and his circumstances in a certain specific location as reality...as opposed to the American obsession of being completely self-contained an able to transcend anything with individuality and hardwork...Together these things spoke to me of acceptance of self--which toned down the envying that had been raging and boiling inside me this week--and the acceptance of the limitations of my location in this this time, this country, this town, this body's age, the size of its thighs, etc.
I have had more material successes this week: I started my new job. I like the people I'm working with. The petty cliques that exist seem minor compared to my old job. We finished the closing arguments of my court case this week (sent in my be e-mail, looked MUCH better than the other side's) Yet, while I've felt calmer, I've been angrier this week than I can remember being in a very long time--at life, at God, at fate.... Not the POA though...subject of fantasy early on in the week, but I managed to cut that off quite deliberately and successfully.
I don't know why but my loneliness has made me so very, very angry and envious this week....until I went to Church. Loneliness in me always searches for someone or something to blame....I know I do it now (since therapy) and I thought the knowledge would stop it from happening but it hasn't. I always return to: I must have done something horrible to deserve this much pain for so long (starting long before the POA--any of the POAs in fact) And the rejection of self and ENVY is a major part of it.
Someone here Isleta maybe? Wanted us to write positive things about ourselves. I couldn't think of a single thing that didn't seem....worthless. I am all about what I do not have, what I envy...a love to call my own....which would simply be someone to crush right now.
I can't seem to find myself. And I not all that interested. Rejection of self. A life long problem for me. I didn't REALLY know I was envious until I let myself be angry this week.
Susan spoke of transferring the torch-bearing fantasy to Jesus. I'd like to hear more about that. I can't move backward to fantasizing about the POA: As angry and envious as I've been in general, that could lead to a disaster. (It's only been a passing thought to call him...get him to say he's thought about me, but it's there. I know I just want any relief I can get from the loneliness but I don't want to take this thought too lightly)
Anyway Nickie, I know I have a book here that talks about "the shadow" Jungian? maybe. I'm not sure. I'm still working on the Pregnant Virgin.
Sorry so jumbled,
Presence
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Post by nickie on Jun 15, 2009 3:03:09 GMT -8
imo, the general idea about the value of envy is that it can become an avenue toward accepting one's OWN good. accepting the pursuit of good as an honorable need rather then something to be denied, ignored or banished borne from a misguided loyality to original codependency on other people. i have found that as i learn to stop resenting my unrealized good, i stop rejecting myself. rather then perceiving envy as sin i look at it now as a motivating factor toward forgiving myself, my circumstance and condition soo that i can open myself toward recieving my good which is my divine heritage. i have a long way to go toward realizing this.
what i have been experimenting with in terms of susan's suggestion about transferring the torchbearing off PoA onto god, is the following simple approach:
i try to envision placing my higher power between me and any conflict. before me and any other person, place, thing, idea or feeling. i just try to remember that my higher power is with me and is my source. nothing else is my source. that wherever i am, god is and nothing less. i remember that when i have my higher power in front of me, i do not need to attach myself to depending on any person.
this is just my approach, i'm not sure this is exactly what she meant but it is helping me.
your post isn't jumbled at all Presence. you know i've been lucky enough to have worked with many terrific psychologists with lots of therapy in my younger days. perhaps that's why this stuff interests me. it is easy to get overwhelmed by too much theory, particularly shadow theory.
it can be awfully hard to find a compatible therapist but lots of progress can be made with a professional.
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Post by nickie on Jun 15, 2009 3:34:52 GMT -8
p.s.
torchbearing is perhaps just another form of dependency? as if depending on nothing (no one that's really there, an illusion of my own construction) is better then no dependency at all? maybe this is more accurately what susan was talking about. that we can consciously choose to depend on our higher power instead?
for my part, i'm working with the idea of getting rid of all my torches. i hope to individuate, to integrate my conscious and unconscious knowledge soo that i can internalize/reconnect with my divine nature within myself, rather than pin a torch to my own divinity.
this is abstract and confusing even for me. i'm not recommending my approach, i'm just sharing what my process looks like. there is probably more then one model of recovery. one thing i am sure of is that torchbearing is the expression for how ambivalent love addict anorexics act out. chronic debilitating lonliness and isolation in a pressure cooker of self hate. my LAA recovery is all about having the intention to heal my own torchbearing AND having the patience to go through the process.
i may not know what exactly i'm doing all the time but i DO know i am in the direction of releasing my need for the torchbearing expressed in sick relationship triangles. i have surrendered and am no longer willing to perpetuate running on empty.
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Post by Susan Peabody on Jun 15, 2009 13:35:10 GMT -8
This is a very good plan and the goal of all torchbearers. Transferring through personification of a Higher Power is just a step in that direction.
Thank you for stating this so well.
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Post by presence on Jun 27, 2009 20:12:53 GMT -8
I didn't find this for a while.
Thank you so much Nickie. Your interpretation of (simplifying of) the envy book in combination with attempting to stop the judging of my thoughts has been very helpful this week.
And your way of seeing God/visualizing God as a method to end your torch bearing is also helpful--though I haven't really tried it yet.
Thank you,
Presence
Presence
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Post by primrose on Jan 18, 2010 7:16:42 GMT -8
Am writing up a storm on this board today, but really, WHAT A JOY to find others doing this work!!! It's wonderful and so helpful. I truly envied my POA, and in that envy I wanted to merge, be him, and then destroy him. Came as quite a surprise to me to discover such hate in me, wow I'm a narcissist too! It's me trying to get revenge on my father. I adored my father, he incested me. I denied it and hid it from myself, but inside I was raging that he hurt me and used me when all I did was worship him. With my POA I wanted to play that again and WIN. Of course I didn't win, but I certainly tried. I wanted everything my POA was, while knowing it was just addictive toxic nastiness that drove him. But I wanted it all the same. And I hated getting in touch with envy and jealousy, I hated it. I wanted to absorb the thing I envied and that way stop feeling that terrible feeling of envy.
It's so connected to not being able to receive. Well, it wasn't safe to receive as a child in my family. Phew, still get mind fog unravelling this, but reading what others are doing is wonderful. So great to hear the solution and also brilliant analysis.
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Post by geedee on Jan 18, 2010 8:04:08 GMT -8
thanks for this primrose. reread the whole thread.
don't want to dwell on this because i have to put my POA behind me but i had realised myself that i wanted to be my POA and i wanted his life. my own life seemed worthless and at a dead end.
now that I'm in recovery I see that my problems lie within myself and it is here that i have to learn to grow and appreciate what i have.
I see myself as a 'soul moving toward God' as mentioned above.
i was looking in the wrong place when i got involved with my POA and was moving further and further away from God.
How blinded I was by my envy.
greta
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Post by walkingonwater on Jan 18, 2010 10:35:42 GMT -8
That envy stuff is really helpful! Recently realised I'm jealous all the time, mainly of happy couples.
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Post by primrose on Jan 31, 2010 4:37:03 GMT -8
Was thinking about this more, and how my parents have struggled with their envy of me and my siblings. Of course, it's mixed in with genuine pride and love for us, but both of my parents are jealous of their children and as neither of them were healthy, their jealousy was pretty toxic.
My father desired me and my sister. He desired my brothers' girlfriends (still does) he became extremely innapropriate when he was drunk. One of my brothers would beg my father not to get drunk when he brought his girlfriend home. My father was and is, jealous of youth, jealous of beauty, jealous of vigour. My mother was in agony over my father's sex addiction and reacted to it by being jealous of the attention her daughters got. So typically freudian!
My father used to talk to me for hours about what I was doing at school or uni, what I was learning, what I thought, what I felt. He drank me in, he loved my intelligence, but I guess really he loved the adoration of a pretty young girl never mind that I was his daughter.
And I replicated that with my POA. An older man adoring me, talking to me about business. He never spoke about himself ever, the focus was always on me. And I sooo envied him his success and status and power. I felt like the girl I was when I was with my father. That HUGE intensity of an adult's attention but with the terror of my father's unpredictability because he was drunk, and my fear of his sexual energy. I trod a fine line as a child with my father. It wasn't safe for me, but if I was with my father, at least I was with him, and I got something from him; attention. And in that exchange of my child adoration for his attention I learnt that i got what I "wanted" by being less than, being the devotee.
When I was with my POA I think part of me was screaming to grow up, because I wanted to be my POA, be the successful one, not the child looking up at the genius father. It was like part of me wanted to go back symbolically to that experience and release it. But I was caught in it, caught in that trap of being the child staring at her god. I got a lot from my POA actually, but I couldn't stay in that role because it would have destroyed me. But I did go back with my POA symbolically to being 12 and having my father stare at me with the intensity that adults should reserve for other adults, and somehow that showed me that i'd been stuck as a child and my jealousy of my POA showed me that I wanted to grow up. I wanted to be an adult, not the devoted follower. Primrose.
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Post by freetolive on Jul 3, 2011 7:17:27 GMT -8
This is good reading. I always wondered why I was so envious. My POA would have guy friends in which I knew them too. I'm not sure how this works, but I'm going to try and explain... When I was going through the break-up or even during the relationship. I would start this crazy cycle in my mind where I would compare my POA's guy friends with me and I would always come up on the losing end. This became worse towards the end of the relationship. I'm wondering if my struggle in school, my failed test this past winter, didn't escalate my self hated or self doubt. So maybe as I hated or doubted me, i would assume she did too, so the guy friends I started looking at were they were better than me. They seemed together, while I was coming unglued. (comparing my insides to their outsides, not good) Today, I'm still struggling in school. I have failed two test this summer, which has placed me in an very steep uphill climb. I'm really believing that I have taken the wrong career change. Here goes the comparing, "no one else in class seem to struggle as I have." If I quit, I worry about what others will think. I even worry about what POA would think. That's insane, she is go longer in my life. But I secretly keep the torch light.  For the school, I believe fantasy led me towards this career. I thought it would be cool to be a traveling Xray tech and travel and see different places. I thought, anybody can give an xray. Trained properly, anyone should be able too. It's all the other classes that are killing me. Physiology, Biology, Physics. Subject that I really don't care about. Crazy huh? See I started all this school before I found out how sick I really am. With relationships and self honesty. I actually find myself feeling trapped. And thinking I must keep going on or look like a fool. Then my disease thinking wants me to go and use drugs, then sabotage everything and start over. Crazy place I'm in. Maybe that is why I keep wanting to go back to my POA. Because I think I need someone's acceptance? What's wrong with my acceptance? Am I afraid of being alone with what I choose. Even if it's right for me? See I was the only child. So facing the world alone has always been frighting. So maybe that is where I need to start placing God. I like what I read about placing God in between me and the object of my addiction (POA). It's cool how you pointed out about being attracted or envying your POA. The two POA's that "rung my bell" the most, were both smart college ladies, very organized, pretty, sweet/avoidant, fun, bla bla oh, and great sex(maybe that was inappropriate to post). So I see a pattern. I really need to becareful not to reach out to POA. That would be devastating to my fractured self worth. If she still said she didn't want me after I've been secretly carrying a torch! I would be devastated. So I'm keeping the NC. Guess I'm going to try and study harder too. OH ME. LOL |
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RoseNadler
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Post by RoseNadler on Nov 28, 2019 8:54:50 GMT -8
Yes, I’m digging up a ten-year-old thread. But I really got something out of this, so I think it’s worth it.
How this applies to me: all my life I’ve wanted to be somebody I saw as “not me” - I wanted to be Peggy F. or Cindy K. or a cheerleader, sorority girl, etc. And because deep down inside, I believed I wasn’t good enough to be any of those things, I tried to talk myself into disliking those things. The dialogue went something like this:
Me one: I want to be like (Peggy, Cindy, etc.)
Me two: Shut up! Who the hell do you think you are? You’re not anywhere near their league. You’ll never be like them.
Me three: Maybe they aren’t so great after all. They’re fake and stuck up and they just buy friends. They aren’t dark and creative and interesting. Now THAT’S something I could be!
Me two: Wrong again. You’re not nearly cool enough to be that.
Me one: (still wants the things I’m not: either all-American success girl or awesomely cool rebellious type). I guess you’re right.
Me three: I bet we could pass, though. Let’s try it. [And so begins a lifetime of me worrying about living up to some image, instead of seeing what’s good about my natural self, and nurturing it.]
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Post by sexlessw on Dec 1, 2019 5:10:23 GMT -8
Rose Nadler:
Every looked up how Peggy F and Cindy K are doing now? With FB it's darned easy. Actually, I DON'T recommend you look up how Peggy F and Cindy K are doing now. From personal experience having done the same regarding gals I went to HS with this past weekend.
No need to rehash the past (this is for me). Their lives are one way - your life is here (another for myself).
Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I needed to read it too.
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RoseNadler
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Post by RoseNadler on Dec 1, 2019 8:15:08 GMT -8
I hate to tell you this, but Peggy and Cindy are doing great.
Peggy was homecoming Queen in college, built a visible career in a highly competitive field, married her HS sweetheart (they’re still married), had two kids who seem to be doing well, and lives in an expensive part of northern VA.
Cindy ran for homecoming Queen in college, built an academic career, married her college sweetheart (still married), had four kids who seem to be doing well, has five grandchildren, and last year started a new career, in the same field but a different setting than her academic career.
Thanks for trying, LOL.
I try to remind myself that Cindy and Peggy weren’t coping with an addiction and chronic anxiety and depression. And I can’t know this, but maybe their families of origin were more functional than mine. Maybe their parents weren’t dealing with anxiety, depression, and their own tough childhood. Maybe Cindy and Peggy didn’t get bullied when they were kids. All of those factors did a lot of damage to me.
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Post by sexlessw on Dec 9, 2019 4:37:32 GMT -8
Rose Nadler: Well, you know, you could be right. Cindy & Peggy just had better opportunities in life, whether it be their families of origin, better financial resources, or a bit of healthy narcissism to keep marriages, careers, kids and grandkids (!!!) in their life. Narcissism "healthy" - in doses. Not full-blown. However, would you rather be where YOU WERE looking at Cindy & Peggy's current lives or where you are NOW looking at their lives? As I like to say about people whom I have known: Part of My Past [POMP]. Cindy & Peggy (and how many others) are your POMP. That doesn't mean I haven't looked at FB pages of people whom I've known. I can't say I have a bit of envy - then again, it's FB and social media. Yeah SexlessW, keep telling yourself that!  |
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RoseNadler
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Post by RoseNadler on Dec 9, 2019 6:47:25 GMT -8
Rose Nadler: However, would you rather be where YOU WERE looking at Cindy & Peggy's current lives or where you are NOW looking at their lives? Thank you! That puts things in perspective. |
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Post by sexlessw on Dec 11, 2019 4:12:24 GMT -8
Rose Nadler:
It's something I think to myself when I am one of those "whatever happened to" moods. I think many of us here have had those "whatever happened to" moods. Yet, once I find out what I need to find out, I say, "Hmm SexlessW, that got you what? Do you think those POMPs are thinking or reading YOUR FB page?" I answer myself, "No, probably not. I'm THEIR POMP - and that is where I NEED to be."
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