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Post by bushbiyu on Sept 10, 2009 6:23:08 GMT -8
I wanted to post here because I'm hoping this can help other torchbearers and obsessives. I'm working the steps, but I need a better definition of sobriety. Something beyond NC. I realized that inside of the relationship I am a typical codependant love addict. I'll do anything to keep the relationship, take any abuse and try to control the PoA. But outside of a relationship I am the worse torchbearer/obsessed LA I know.  I didn't realize this because it's been such a long time since I've been outside of a relationship. For a long period I just jumped from one marriage to another. Okay, so now, what is sobriety for me? I get the same high from the fantasies about my PoA that I did from my PoA. I'm addicted to those fantasies because the thought of stopping the fantasies sent me into withdrawal the same way NC did. I gave up on NC after about 3 weeks because NC alone really wasn't sobriety for me. But how do I stop something that is so ingrained in what I do every hour of every day. I fantasize everywhere, I say his name to myself, I pretend he is talking to me, I go on long extended vacations with him in my mind, we live whole lives in my head. Yes, it is that bad. I've fantasized my whole life, making up stories so involved and complicated that generations of characters would live and die and be reborn. I did this to survive my childhood, I know, but it's something that comes into my head without me even trying anymore. Fantasies have become detrimental to my recovery. I get delusional and start thinking that he wants me to contact him (this man has threatened me twice now with a restraining order). That is how bad this is. Because I fantasize so much, I get the fantasy him mixed up with the reality him. And then I act off of what I imagined. I do this with other people, too. So I really need to have a plan. Sobriety for me is this: 1) When I start to fantasize about my PoA, I must stop the fantasy as soon as I realize what I am doing. I can replace it with another fantasy that is harmless (not based on anything real) or think about my life goals. 2) When I start to fantasize about anyone in real life (man, woman or child) I must stop as soon as I realize it. I must remember that fantasizing about real people is a violation of sobriety because it does not allow me to focus on the reality of a relationship. And I must look at all relationships as they are, not as I want them or need them to be. 3) When I am upset or feeling bad about something I must work through (or attempt to work through) the feeling BEFORE I start fantasizing. Only after I have done that can I have a fantasy. This is because I cannot use my fantasies to run away from how I feel. I need to be present in my life. So these are my big three rules of fantasy sobriety right now. I might add more as I see fit. I do eventually want to get to the point in which I don't use fantasy at all. But I think that would be impossible right off the bat because it is something I've done for so long. The key is controlling it and not letting it control me. I started fantasy sobriety yesterday morning and I couldn't believe how many times I started having a fantasy about my PoA or other real people. I had to stop myself so often it was a little hilarious. My kids kept asking me why I was shaking my head and laughing all the time. But the entire day was very good, I was present and much more upbeat, much more able to do the things I needed. And I didn't want or need to contact my PoA at all. I pledge day two of fantasy sobriety. |
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dearprudence
New Member
The sky is blue, it's beautiful and so are you.
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Post by dearprudence on Sept 30, 2009 13:35:21 GMT -8
Thank you so much for this, bushbiyu! I was praying to God for a sign or hope, and I think He brought me here to the LAA message board for a reason. He led me to your post, and I feel very hopeful now. I will surely keep these steps in mind, when I start to fantasize about my POA again! |
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Post by lotus on Sept 30, 2009 18:28:12 GMT -8
Thanks, bushbiyu. I especially like #3.
This is something I have to work on too...and, yes, it's the hardest thing of them all! Sometimes the thoughts come and go without me even realizing it, which I obviously haven't been able to do anything about. When I do catch myself I usually"let it go" by focusing on my body and what's going on around me. If I'm laying in bed I notice how soft and warm the comforter is. If I'm walking outside, I feel myself walking and notice nature, the wind, or whatever. I'm too the point now where my mind will often just naturally move onto something else.
For the long term, though, I need to transfer my torch to my HP or something else that is harmless. I haven't quite figured that one out yet.
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Post by Angel on Sept 30, 2009 22:27:29 GMT -8
Dear Bushbiyu,
I just posted something somewhere else about this same thing. I tend to fantasize a lot and now I am going through what I term 'Knurd' which is a state described by my favourite author Terry Pratchett as being the complete opposite of drunk. This is achieved after drinking too much (klatchian) coffee when you are sooo terribly aware of reality and there is no place to hide from it.
That is where I am at. I am now catching myself fantasising and realise that this isn't healthy. My BFF tried to tell me I wasn't 'too bad' a LA but ONLY I know what is going on inside my head and the fantasies are how I managed to cope with the pain of dealing with reality. I used them as a child and now they are causing problems in my life because I am still avoiding reality. I think I also have fantasies about men cos I am scared of truely being with one and a fantasy man I can control a lot more easily than a real one LOL.
I am starting to realise all this because of coming to this site and being honest with myself about what I am doing and feeling. I started to realise that I really am attractive but have a problem cos recently a lot of people have been asking me WHY I don't have a BF. It is because I am terribly terribly afraid and a fantasy one based on someone I met is a lot less scarey than the real thing.
In fact I agree with you totally that sobriety and emotional sobriety doesn't just mean NC. Heck, NC for an ambivilent LA is easy. I really don't have trouble not contacting them cos in a relationship NOT contacting them is WHAT I do. I am so caught up in my fears of a relationship that I hesitate to call, wait ages before I answer or go full at it and then pull back. So NC and maintaining NC doesn't seem to be as difficult for an ALA as for an OLA.
BUT.....
Wow do I fantasize!! Each phone call/msn/text message/ping will trigger a reaction in me that is WAY out of proportion to what happened. I will react and fantasize for hours about the way that he looked at me, what he said, what he did, and imagine what he is thinking RATHER than look at his treatment of me and whether I feel happy around him. This fantasising and obsessive thinking is my sickness and sobriety means NOT doing it and thinking rationally about another person - something which I am still unsure of how to do cos I have been doing all this crazy thinking for as long as I could remember.
I like your idea too of choosing a harmless fantasy that doesn't involve another person. I have been trying to do this so that I can wean myself a little more gently. If you have ever experienced KNURD you can know that it is a terrifying place to be! Sometimes a gentle fantasy of being able to walk along a beach, or watch the moon in the sky or be dancing like Isarelda in the Hunchback of Notra Dame can be a more pleasant and less destuctive form of fantasy. I mean our happiness depends on what we are thinking about and how we take reality as it comes. Perhaps gentle fantasies like this are harmless and help us be more positive in life.
I find it so reassurring to come here and check the forum. There is always someone else who is going through something that I can totally relate to.
Thanks everyone
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Post by lelo0680 on Oct 1, 2009 22:18:10 GMT -8
I fantasize a lot too. Just a few weeks ago my last POA emailed me after I changed my number 2 months ago. She's a great girl, perfect to start a recovery; but the only thing is that I didn't know I was a LA when we were dating so I pretty much pushed her away with my powerplays. Its been 10 months since we broke up. At the beginning I tried to remain friends and she's always being sweet and caring. She always contacted me which I never did; but everytime she contacts me I fantasize about me and her getting back together.
So it was really hard for me to stay in touch so I decided to change my number and 2 months after she emailed me. I fantasize just thinking about what the email says and I haven't even read it lol. I guess I prefer to believe it says something sweet than a sad reality. I'm too scared to read it and get dissapointed. I need advice. Should I read it?
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Post by Angel on Oct 1, 2009 23:57:42 GMT -8
Probably not. I believe 'peeking' is a breach of NC and puts you back to the beginning in your recovery.
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Post by bushbiyu on Oct 4, 2009 7:14:02 GMT -8
dearprudence, besatt,
Case in point:
I've been spending time fantasizing about my PoA and I felt horrible. It really is like taking a drink if you rare an alcoholic. It feels so good while I'm in the fantasy, but once I'm out I'm edgy, irritable, pent-up, stressed, and frustrated all over again. To get out of those feelings I want to fantasize again. Truly an addiction.
I've started back on fantasy sobriety again. I modified 3) to include bad AND good feelings. I had to realize that even when I'm happy and doing well I can fall into a fantasy that I'm "recovered" and all my problems are over. This is dangerous because feeling "recovered" is not recovery.
China, I love how you pointed out that NC is different for an ALA and an OLA. I'm just starting to understand how avoidant LA can pull back, disappear because of the fear of enmeshment, while OLA/CoDLA, cling, control, stalk, obsess, manipulate, panic, attempt suicide, anything to keep from feeling abandoned. Like you said, in the end emotional sobriety is something personal and individualized. The key is to say uninvolved emotionally.
lelo0680, perhaps you shouldn't read the email. If you know that you do not want to get back with her, then no good will come out of reading it. If you are fantasizing about reading it, then, letting the email go (deleting it without reading it) will help you let the fantasy go, too. And believe me, I know how powerful those fantasies are. China's right. Peeking is contact.
It's sad how sometimes I choose to spend time fantasizing instead of coming here and interacting with people that understand and help me. It's how I isolate myself. I've done it so long and so intensely the habit is very hard to break. But it is good to see this and be reminded that I control my fantasies and they do not control me.
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Post by Angel on Oct 4, 2009 19:56:31 GMT -8
Dear Bushbiyu,
I can feel I am making progress but at the moment the reality of "Knurd" is getting a bit overwhelming. I just read somewhere that taking away a security blanket from a child may not be in the child's best interest. It is up to us to let go when we are ready and you know, I find that my fantasies are helping me to deal with reality in bits and pieces. It is like my security blanket was torn to pieces and I am hanging on to the shreds of it. "Not gonna let go of that piece! This one can go, that one too but hang on this one, nah, not letting that go yet"
I think that one of the reasons I have acted out three times recently is because I tried to go through growth too quickly and the child in me rebelled and acted out.
Not sure what everyone else thinks about this but I am AWARE of my fantasizing and how it helps block me from dealing with TOO much reality. Now I am able to push it aside when I NEED to do something to fix my life such as getting my finances under order. Also I am now starting to think that my inner child needs time to play and have fun. Maybe if I nurture her she will need the fantasies a little less.
what do others think?
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Post by bushbiyu on Oct 5, 2009 11:12:06 GMT -8
You know I think you are right about the security blanket. It's like I the more I try NOT to fantasize the more it takes a hold of me. I have to be involved in something else, school, my kids, this board and then I don't even think about these fantasies. But the minute I have free time... uh, oh.
I remember acting out earlier this year because in therapy we were getting down to my rape (I still have trouble talking about this) and issues with my mother. I cried so hard with my therapist, like wept for hours. It was purging but to continue to do that on my own (my therapist wants me to regularly release my emotions) is so hard. When I feel things, good and bad, I'm so used to fantasizing them, using a fantasy to work through them instead of FEELING them.
I'm still struggling with this all. My inner child is healing but the habits are still there. I feel stronger with my higher power, but the low self-esteem is still clinging. I'm feeling better in my life, but I still think of EJ. I guess this will take time. I'm trying to maintain positive, but it's hard and disheartning sometimes.
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Post by Angel on Nov 13, 2009 0:58:53 GMT -8
I spoke to a GF in fact several GFs and they tell me that I am doing the right thing by asking them to stand strong next to me. I am also doing the right thing by coming here and confessing what I am feeling.
K and V are power playing. Any female in their vicinity is a target for their attention. They are little boys seeking validation. I need to remember that. I have another female friend I who is able to hang around them and doesn't get hooked cos she knows what they are like. In fact they don't hide it from her anymore. S was like that and I have known him for years. He tried and tried but never succeeded with me. He even got angry cos he couldn't hook me into him. He said nasty spiteful things about me but I realise that it was his ego. These guys aren't much different either.
I know that the reason they are there is because it is a test to see how strong I am. That as I get past this test I will feel more strong and confident and when a man turns up who is between R and K and has confidence in himself, I won't be scared of him. Before I used to run away cos a man who was strong and confident was a threat to me.
I can do this.
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Post by serenityseeker09 on Nov 25, 2009 8:05:07 GMT -8
Thanks everyone for this thread....I really needed to read it. I've taken your suggestions and now I'm allowing myself to have the fantasy for about 60 seconds and then I have reality questions to ask myself.
For example, my boyfriend mentioned that he wants to buy another house and let his daughter keep the one that is almost paid off. He described the home he is looking for and at that instant I began fantasizing about selling my house, moving in with him, cooking and entertaining friends, ...the whole 'fabulous' life fantasy. I even went online later to look at the real estate in that area so I could 'see' my fantasy!! (I checked jobs in the area, too!)
I realized that this wasn't healthy so the next time I started that fantasy, I asked myself:
-if he asks you to move in and he works a lot, how alone will you feel in that huge house?
-what am I giving up that I've worked so hard for to live this fantasy life?
-what about my job? Do I commute 30 mins through traffic or enjoy my present 10 min commute?
-remember, he's just a guy who likes to keep things simple, he may want me to move in but he likely has no real intention of getting married.
Once I ask myself the 'reality check' questions, the fantasy balloon deflates and drifts away out of my mind. At this point, poking holes in my fantasy works best for me. It brings the logic side of me out to confront the dreamer side.
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jenx
New Member
"please take from me my life, when I don't have the strength, to give it away to you, Jesus.
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Post by jenx on Dec 3, 2009 4:32:16 GMT -8
ok, so here goes day 1 of Fantasy sobriety/NC. God help me!
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Post by geedee on Dec 3, 2009 8:55:07 GMT -8
yes I have to keep reminding myself to switch off or do something else when thoughts of him take over. that fantasy has to go! and I have to aim for total NC even in my head.
Greta
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Post by gratefulheart on Dec 3, 2009 13:43:57 GMT -8
i'm with all of you. Today is my first day of taking control of my fantasy life during my NC. So far successful.. even when listening to beautiful music which usually triggers me. i instead switched to looking at the green scenery as I drove and focused on my good taste in music ;D, instead of lulling off to dreamland.
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jenx
New Member
"please take from me my life, when I don't have the strength, to give it away to you, Jesus.
Posts: 18
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Post by jenx on Dec 3, 2009 18:07:46 GMT -8
I made it about half the day...but today was better than yesterday...and the day before that.
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Post by heykitty72 on Dec 14, 2009 19:54:44 GMT -8
I'm just so thankful for this website and everyone who is brave enough to share a story. It's so helpful for me just to read this and identify what I'm going through and know that I'm not alone. I'm also a torchbearer and I'm having such a hard time getting over my ex. I've prayed to God to please help me. He's usually the first thing I think about during the day, I think about him throughout the day and he's the last thing I think about at night. I constantly think about how different things would have been if I would have never lost my temper because of other issues, etc. How we would be together and my life would be so different. Sometimes I feel totally hopeless like I will never meet anyone else and that's when I'm at my lowest. Sometimes (rarely but it's getting better) I feel like this was a learning experience and maybe with God's help we'll get back together or there's someone better for me. But whatever the case, I'm having this relationship with him in my head and this has to end. I do transfer, I've been doing that for years and never really understood it. I know enough about myself to know that when I got like this with other boyfriends, someone else would come a long to help me get through but I don't see that happening this time. I read Susan's post that said I have to find something else to focus on. Maybe I'll focus on God so I can't get so hung up on these guys. Maybe that's what God want me to do anyway. Give Him the same love, respect and attention I give these guys. I don't know all I know is that I want to get over him already but I just can't... no, I'm not going to say I can't, it's just more difficult then I thought. I will recover from this.
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Post by geedee on Dec 14, 2009 22:49:36 GMT -8
yes you will recover heykitty72. trust in God and start loving Him and yourself.
Have you thought about doing the steps? that is helping me so much.
greta
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jenx
New Member
"please take from me my life, when I don't have the strength, to give it away to you, Jesus.
Posts: 18
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Post by jenx on Dec 15, 2009 11:58:49 GMT -8
Fantasy sobriety is so tough. I've realized that I've been a fantasizer since I was a kid, as I grew up it grew into fantasized about boys and sex and love. My goal is to stop ALL fantasies, not just the ones about my POA. I know it will take time...and I also know that focusing on God rather than on fantasizing will help me.
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Post by walkingonwater on Dec 16, 2009 14:26:06 GMT -8
I think I'm a mixture of ALA and OLA.
How does everyone else handle it?
SP's book says ALA need to stick to a relationship, OLA need NC...
So I reckon I might treat fantasising as my recovery starting point - no ruminating about POA or fantasising in any way -
But see contact as OK, as long as I'm not doing it with someone who is unavailable.
If anyone does attachment speak, I think fantasising (or other addictions for that matter) are like self-soothing. I used to do it as a child, dream of romantic liaisons, to make myself feel better... has continued. Am terrified of a real relationship though.
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Woof
Junior Member
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Post by Woof on Feb 5, 2010 20:02:01 GMT -8
My POA loved my fantasy. We would make up stories together then email latter chapters or installments. Vampires, trailer park love stories you name it. Now it is so hard to stop.
Help!
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Post by ok2bme on Feb 5, 2010 22:31:57 GMT -8
I have done well not allowing myself to fantasize about him. It has brought the most peace. If I must think about something not real I try to think about what needs to be done or what could be done in my life. Like thinking it through the steps to completion. About him is a no no for me because it really increases the chances of me getting hooked again. Also, I've learned from reading posts & a book, that it has actually kept me away from LIVING what can be real. I've fantasised my entire life as an escape. I just thought I was thinking, like anyone else would, until learning about my addiction.
It is hard to STOP but I have expected myself to STOP about him...the few times it started & rolled, I quickly completed it with the reality of our relationship to get the leash in control again...the reality of our relationship was not pretty like the fantasy, it hurt, but it allows me to walk away. The fantasisies enabled me to pursue it relentlessly.
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Post by perfectday on Feb 6, 2010 1:08:49 GMT -8
ok2bme, I think not fantasising, or ruminating as I do (thinking about the past, rather than the future) is such a large part of healing. You're doing well if you've stopped it because it's also one of the hardest parts.
I didn't want to stop ruminating about what had happened because then he had REALLY gone: from my thoughts as well as from my life.
My therapist says my ruminating was me cutting myself. I'd allowed myself to walk away but I hadn't finished with the pain so I kept up all the self-hating thoughts. It's all to avoid the underlying pain of my childhood.
Nickyg, I know what you mean. The PoA and I did a lot of that. We fed each other like vampires.
I kept reading about 'mindfulness' but not being able to do it, but like you ok2bme,now keep dragging thoughts back to what is in front of me now, not all the rubbish that I keep in my head to avoid reality.
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Post by geedee on Feb 6, 2010 1:21:09 GMT -8
nickyg,
i wrote long passionate emails fantasising about whats wheres whens...my POA said i should take up erotic writing as a career and introduced me to a website.
i saw that what i was writing was exactly the same as hundreds of other people who wrote compulsively.
I read a lot of stuff and realised I was NOT unique. And it turned my stomach to see how naive i had been.
It stopped the compulsion tho'. Switched to something else but at least i stopped writing hundreds of emails.
Suppose that's a bit like being caught smoking as a kid. and your parents making you smoke till you are sick. That didnt happen to me luckily as one puff was enough to put me off smoking for life.
just my thoughts,
greta
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Post by geedee on Feb 6, 2010 2:04:54 GMT -8
yes perfectday and ok2bme, not fantasising helps tremendously. I must admit i dreamt about my POA last night. or at least early this morning. we were sitting on the couch side by side eating something. my daughter was there too. he was stroking my back gently and turned towards me and said something sweet. then there was that look in his eye as he said ?I'm going to try and come and see you during the holidays and we can get together  ' i felt violated again. all sweetness and light when he wanted to be but ready to pounce. not blaming him but obviously my subconscious is bringing back feelings that I'm tryng not to deal with. Good to see that even my dreams are showing me reality. so even if i get that buzz from these involuntary thoughts, i stop them going anywhere. 'it's just not real'. I say that over and over till the image disappears. every day is different and is making me uncover things about myself but the time spent obsessing is minuscule compared to where i was 4 months ago and the 16 months before that. Thank you God. greta |
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Post by primrose on Feb 6, 2010 4:42:10 GMT -8
Hi Greta, funny that, my POA told me the same thing about writing. I guess that's part of the pattern of email addiction. Recently my aunt got married, she has married a man who is at sea half the year. They stay in touch via email. She read my one of his emails. Predictably, it was amazing. Of course it was. It was just the kind of thing I used to send myself. Absolutely mind blowing. Beautiful. Intelligent. Wondrous. Erotic. And completely unreal. They're going to buy a boat and sail around the world and live on olives and drink wine. Yeah, and the reality of that will be horrendous i'd say. Two people wanting their fantasies to come true stuck together on a boat without even any decent food to eat. Aaarrrggghh!
Fantasy is just bad for someone like me, and I really really struggle with it around my cycle, it's as constant as breathing for a week a month, and I'm handing it over and mired in it, and then a week later, it's pretty much gone. Very weird.
I love that you checked out that site and realised how similar you were to other people. My insanity told me I was soo special because my writing hooked my POA so intensely, useful to know that if I looked at a site like that i'd discover the same, and that it's just a feature of being addicted to seducing through language. Best. Primrose.
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Post by perfectday on Feb 6, 2010 4:53:17 GMT -8
Dear Mortified Greta and Primrose. You cannot be the best at writing erotic fiction because of course my PoA is. I love how we're all so similar. ;D |
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Post by geedee on Feb 6, 2010 4:58:53 GMT -8
primrose, something just came back to me... ;D i was on the train heading to where i was supposed to be meeting him and he was bombarding me with flirtacious texts telling me i'd probably be disappointed and that i wouldn't go thru with it after seeing him 29 years older blablabla...very very exciting - and I answered that I was in love with him and that everything would be perfect and no way would i be disappointed cos I could feel it in every fibre of my body - think i spent 20 euros on txts during that hour long trip! well I saw him and thought to myself 'who is he? I don't even know who he is!!!!' I had to go thru with it no matter what because i had told him and myself that I loved him! our emails were so passionate I just had to get my head round the fact that the man in my head was not exactly like the man standing in front of me... after that night together and my, hmm ...shock shall i say, I suggested that next time together we should 'warm up' by texting each other for 10 minutes or so from opposite sides of the room! But deep down I meant it. our relationship continued via email only. mind blowing tho it was at times it was me writing to me. he was just my audience. the loving was me loving myself the way I wanted to be loved. The fury bombs were me throwing them at myself cos i was so very angry for what I was doing. greta |
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Post by geedee on Feb 6, 2010 5:10:18 GMT -8
ROFL perfectday! And while I have a big smile on my face....this is a little story I think fits in nicely with highschool sweethearts being reunited and since i was a bit critical of my POA at times this is my idea of par condicio... 'Men... We have double standards too...' I received a phone call from a gorgeous ex-girlfriend who called 'out-of-the-blue' to see if I was still around. We lost track of time, chatting about the wild, romantic times we used to enjoy together. I couldn't believe it when she asked if I'd be interested in meeting up and rekindling a little of that 'old magic'. 'Wow!' I was flabbergasted. 'I don't know if I could keep pace with you now', I said, 'I'm a bit older and a bit grayer and balder than when you last saw me. Plus I don't really have the energy I used to have.' She just giggled and said she was sure I would 'rise to the challenge'. 'Yeah.' I said. 'Just so long as you don't mind a waistline that's a few inches wider these days! Not to mention my total lack of muscle tone...everything is sagging, my teeth are a bit yellowed and I am developing jowls like a Great Dane!' She laughed and told me to stop being so silly. She teased me saying that tubby, gray haired, older men were cute, and she was sure I would still be a great lover. Anyway, she giggled and said, 'I've put on a few pounds myself!' So I told her to F*** off. greta |
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Post by primrose on Feb 6, 2010 8:17:21 GMT -8
ROFLMAO!!! Greta, with this stuff, em, you are me.. so similar it's uncanny. I even wrote a poem to my POA asking him what it was like being my audience. I absolutely gave him what I craved myself. It's a gift too though if it's channelled right. I know a woman in recovery who makes a very healthy living from using her fantasy addiction in her fiction. And look, your ability to be so articulate helps me loads. And has me on the floor in stitches P. |
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Post by Rilly on Feb 6, 2010 8:30:25 GMT -8
Greta wrote: "the loving was me loving myself the way I wanted to be loved. The fury bombs were me throwing them at myself cos i was so very angry for what I was doing." Sounds like you were in a very reflective mood. |
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I didn't realize this because it's been such a long time since I've been outside of a relationship. For a long period I just jumped from one marriage to another. 
' i felt violated again. all sweetness and light when he wanted to be but ready to pounce.
