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Post by brokentoy on Sept 16, 2009 16:28:25 GMT -8
So, here's one of my stumbling blocks, and it's going to be a big one.
I am an atheist.
When I say "atheist," I do not mean I hate "God," or that I deny the existence of "God." I genuinely mean I am completely, utterly devoid of belief in anything "spiritual" outside the mostly unknown, un-understood workings of the human brain. I believe all "spiritual" experience is a natural, organic, biochemical process that takes place in the brain, and that there is no higher power beyond that. Certainly nothing with an intelligence and consciousness that intervenes in the affairs of humans (or any other thing, for that matter, Earthly or off-planet).
I've done time in and around 12-step meetings, most notably when I was with the Alcoholic Love Of My Life. He, too, was sans belief. Through those experiences, I came to the conclusion that I might never be able to "work the steps," because the language and nature of belief in God and Spirituality that permeates the Steps is something I do not possess in the core of my being.
A religiously abusive upbringing (8 years of vicious Catholic school) left me convinced that this "God" others spoke of is simply a figment of the collective human imagination, born/created by us out of a desire for an Ultimate Parent. Somebody/Something we can always trust, that will solve our problems for us, that will tell us not to be afraid, that we are never alone.
When I read the steps, they simply reinforce that core belief.
It's not as though I can will myself to believe in gods--any god, no matter what its name is. And "The Higher Power can be a doornknob" always struck me as disingenuous in the extreme, because a doorknob cannot take my problems away, cannot help me in any way.
This is my biggest, most basic problem with the steps. I honestly cannot see how to work them when it is my genuine, lifelong, earnest that there IS no Higher Power that can intervene, change things, take away faults/flaws, etc. No matter how hard I look at the Steps, I see belief in an interventionist, caring, loving, personal deity as a prerequisite to working them, no matter how many disclaimers are put out there to the contrary.
And unfortunately, I can no more force myself to believe there IS one of those out there somewhere than I can force myself to believe there is an invisible school of neon pink fish that hover over my head at all times, whispering sweet nothings in my ear. Both of those concepts are equally as absurd to me, and I cannot manufacture belief in the former any more than I can manufacture belief in the latter.
This isn't denial or resistance; I'm simply laying my truth out there and asking, is anybody else here an atheist working the steps? How does one do it sincerely, when one sincerely is not able to believe?
Thanks for listening.
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Post by lotus on Sept 16, 2009 23:04:26 GMT -8
One way I look at it is that through addiction we unconsciously come to believe that "we" or another person is a higher power inadvertently by thinking "we" have control over the Universe, or that the other person does and can make things all better. This is not true. We really have very little control over the universe and the things in it. It's more about letting go of control.
I also believe that there is a huge difference between spirituality and religion. Religion has nothing to do with spirituality in my opinion. It may be true that spirituality is something that is constructed by the human brain. So what? I doesn't make it any less real. Spirituality is very helpful to humans, whether it is "real" or a product of evolution. For me, spirituality is connecting to the part of my brain that doesn't just incessantly think. It is about being connected to my body, to quiet, to all of the rest of the living and non-living things in this universe. It is about being humble.
In addition, I do pray to god everyday, even though I don't know if he/she/it is a real thing. Maybe I'm just talking to myself, but it helps me stay sober.
I would just suggest being open-minded. I had a lot of resistance to the 12 step stuff to because of my leanings towards atheism, but ultimately, I was willing to give anything and any new way of thinking a try, if it meant recovery and serenity. Oh, and Buddhism and and Eckhart Tolle helped me access spirituality as an agnostic.
Good Luck!
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Post by bushbiyu on Sept 17, 2009 3:17:04 GMT -8
I had a lot of trouble with this in the beginning, too. My most significant PoA, EJ was an atheist, and I spent many years in a very strict religious environment, Islam. Our experiences are similiar. Perhaps sharing what I did, can help? When I went into the hospital in 2006 I was so angry at God. It scared me because in Islam it is a huge sin to rage at your maker. I was angry, though because I prayed and prayed and fasted and begged and hoped and did everything in my power to "please God" through my exhusband. Nothing had worked and it had only gotten worse. I couldn't understand why God would want me to be so miserable, why God would encourage men to treat women the way I had been treated and other women witnessed, and why God would encourage such hatred and control and violence. As time passed I found myself unable to reconcile the teachings with my own experience of the religion and the followers. I was miserable and I just couldn't figure out why. Later I met my PoA, EJ, who was an atheist. We had long philosophical discussions and he pointed out many things that helped me to understand how unhappy I was as a Muslim. I came to believe what he believed. I felt such a sense of gratitude and relief, then. Finally, I thought, I understood religion as system of control, and spirituality as false reality just used to get through suffering and fear. I didn't have to be Muslim anymore. And, I admit now, a huge part of it, I could now be closer to EJ. This is all nice and fine, the intellectual understanding, (and us on the same wavelength) but I still wasn't owning up to my own beliefs and learning how to truly decide what I wanted to believe FOR MYSELF and MY LIFE. When I started the steps so much anger came out of me towards God. I was angry that my life ended up the way it did. I was angry about what had happened to me. I was angry that while I tried so hard to do the right thing, I just kept making mistakes. I needed to release that anger. Yet, how could I rage at God? This was a huge sin in Islam, and there wasn't any God, anyway right? I felt so confused and frustrated. I realized that I didn't really know WHAT I believed. I was only able to move forward when I defined my HP. I know you said that a HP can be doorknob, but it's not quite that way. A doorknob certainly cannot help you, but the idea that the universe is inherently good, or the understanding of safety in your position in your place as a human being, or the trust in the ability that humans have to heal from inner pain, can. I love art very much. I look at a painting or hear a piece of music or a poem and I know it affects me or means something to me. This is a part of my HP, too. Or even the idea that I am conscious and alive and have the ability to open myself to new things. When I say that I believe my HP leads me to good things, I am saying that being aware, allowing myself to start the journey of recovery, to open myself to this board is not something I can control myself. I have to truly let go and allow myself to be guided. I guess I'm with besatt on this. So what?  (I love that she said that). So what that we need belief. We can give some of our pain to our HP, we can believe in something if we need. Remember we're not using our beliefs to control someone else or escape from responsibility anymore. We're moving forward from a different place that we have before. Oh, I hope you can get something out of all of this. Brokentoy, I do feel that you are doing the right thing by questioning and exploring what you believe. Only you can find those answers, just make sure that they are YOUR answers. I couldn't see this then, but now I do feel a lot of EJ's beliefs came out of his own anger and pain. And I know I took on that anger and pain to be close to him. But I don't need to do that anymore. It is one of the hardest and greatest rewards. It is the most painful and rewarding thing. We get to dig deep and explore ourselves in ways we never have before. |
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Post by judy on Sept 17, 2009 3:41:31 GMT -8
I think there is a difference between "A higher power" and "a power greater than me".
When I laugh, sing, enjoy, appreciate, help, run, swim, dance, work, think, pray, meditate, thank, smile, hug, that is MY higher power guiding me.
When I gossip, exclude, hurt, neglect, ignore, cheat, steal, lie, manipulate - that is the lower power in me at work.
I would prefer to stick with my higher power.
"A power greater than myself" that force outside of myself. The universe, nature, the cosmic, the mysterious, science, the miracles that happen in my life that I did not consiously orchesterate.
"A power greater than myself" is a hurricane, a tornado, an earthquake, electricity, technology, the law.
A power greater than myself is a doorknob. I can't open the door without it.
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Post by staystrong on Sept 17, 2009 6:39:08 GMT -8
Toy...I too have struggled with the emphasis on spirituality within the 12 steps. I am on a spiritual journey...but I do not know if I will ever arrive at a certain and particular point. I do know that I am not a religious person...at all...and never will be. This presents an issue for folks that want to work the 12 steps from a secular angle. I have found a therapist that has put out what he calls the 12 Proactive Steps. Here is the website where you can look at a free online workbook. You can also download it as a PDF. I myself am using this as my guide when I do step work. www.proactivechange.com/12steps/Another thing about HP is that as Judy wrote above, and others, it does not have to be God. HP is just anything bigger than yourself. The Proactive workbook defines HP in a way that I thik you will find easier to digest. Good luck...hope to see your steps real soon. |
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Post by brokentoy on Sept 17, 2009 8:29:50 GMT -8
Besatt, I'm glad you've found something that works for you. I've heard about Tolle for years and haven't read his work--will hit the library. (And trust me, nobody knows better than me that I have little or no control over anything in the world--not people, not things, and most of the time, not even myself!)
Bushbiyu, your experience sounds incredibly painful and I'm happy to hear you've found some peace.
Judy--aw, you went there! You went to the doorknob! :-) Fine, I'll see your doorknob and raise you an axe. I can now open the door without the doorknob. :-P
And on a serious note, THANK YOU, staystrong. I'll read that site in full tonight, but that light breeze you may have felt just now was me letting out a huge sigh of relief. Now THAT'S a formulation of the steps that I can work with.
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Post by lotus on Sept 17, 2009 11:29:31 GMT -8
Thanks, staystrong. I think I'm going to read that workbook too.
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Post by sillypoppet on Oct 7, 2009 12:34:41 GMT -8
I just breezed by this discussion and wanted to add my thoughts.
I don't think you need to believe in God to be in recovery. The main thing that I was hearing, when I started recovering, was to take back my power. As love addicts we give our power and our self respect away for the hope that someone will love us. Of course, it never works, and we end up getting hurt.
I also agree when someone said that religion and spirituality are two different things. I consider myself to be very spiritual, I believe in God, but I do not consider myself religious. I think there is a fine line separating the two, mainly when hypocrisy and control issues come into play (which unfortunately end up hurting a lot of people). I think the main thing for recovery is reclaiming our power and keeping hope. Whether or not you believe in God, I believe that recovery is possible. For those who do believe in God, they may find it easier to place their hope in something bigger than humanity. I'm not saying that one should just pray to God and expect everything to be magically fixed, because it doesn't work that way. We have to learn from our mistakes, and in my opinion a higher power is not going to just tap you on the head, and you're all better... you won't learn anything from it, you won't have the opportunity to become a better person, and you'll probably make the same mistake again. I think that the only way people begin to seek change is when they can't bear the negative effects of their decisions anymore.
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godsguy
Full Member
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GOD IS LOVE!
Posts: 146
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Post by godsguy on Dec 23, 2009 1:25:38 GMT -8
When I wake up early to watch the sun rise and the morning come to life, the thing that I notice most is the sounds of all creation proudly worshiping their God. The birds sing, the frogs croak, the crickets chirp, etc.
Whether or not they know and believe in the same God as the gods we serve, they are
happy, peace-filled, and they love and know they are loved.
If we don't believe in something greater than ourselves, we will not find peace and love and joy. What hope do we have?
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(I love that she said that). So what that we need belief. We can give some of our pain to our HP, we can believe in something if we need. Remember we're not using our beliefs to control someone else or escape from responsibility anymore. We're moving forward from a different place that we have before.
