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Post by lotus on Dec 21, 2009 16:16:42 GMT -8
I watched a podcast about complicated grief, recently. It talked about how important it is when you lose someone (not just from death) to grieve them properly. They said it was important to talk about the person you lost to someone, especially the good things. It occurred to me that we torch bearers can't do that; it's not appropriate to talk about or we feel guilty about it. Maybe that's why we have a hard time letting go even when someone has left our life?
Any thoughts?
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Post by gratefulheart on Dec 21, 2009 22:52:11 GMT -8
It's hard for me to think rationally about letting someone go, talk about it, etc. I do feel guilty and ashamed.. it brings up the feeling of being near death.. that I'm about to abandon the only thing that is keeping me sane and alive. and there is a great deal of shame.. to still feel childlike and re-experiencing past wounds through the present loss.
for me, my addiction has caused me to protect myself and refuse to believe that my love wasn't enough.. my fantasy world has helped me survive feelings of rejection, where i can rewrite reality into something bearable that i can live with.. and if that doesn't work, in order to avoid the unbearable feelings of loss, i just transfer the torch.. and the cycle continues..
It's pure insanity. I know logically people survive abandonment, loss, being unloved.. but to me, those things bring sheer terror. The addiction is so ingrained in me as a way to cope with those feelings, sometimes I feel like ending it to just escape my own mind.
It's so hopeful but desperately frustrating,too, to know that changing the way of thought can change the way of life. I wish i could just will my mind, my thoughts to change so that i can be free. in time, in time..
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Post by LovelyJune on Dec 22, 2009 3:19:07 GMT -8
Gratefulheart, not only is it insanity, but it's also over-dramatic. The way you have described holding on seems like a desperate Hollywood movie from the 40s. I don't say that to invalidate your expression at all, but rather, to draw attention to the fact that we can sometimes create a huge amount of drama out of misery, desperation and holding on. Think about how many movies or romance novels glamorize the torchbearer. While that's OK for entertainment, it is not for real life. Nor is it realistic. You gain NOTHING from holding on to a past love. You think you hold on for comfort, but basically, you are stunting your own growth. As far as changing thoughts are concerned, that is very hard to do if you still believe that there is anything to gain from holding on. I had the same problem. I kept complaining about the same thing over and over again, for YEARS, but never took any action to change my behavior. Because I never changed my behavior, I repeated past mistakes. Sometimes when we force ourselves to take different actions, to take baby risks, our mind follows. What harm is there in taking a baby step today and maybe doing something you normally would not do? Try it. See how it feels. Also, there is A LOT to be said for the wonderful world of brainwashing. Brainwashing always gets a bad wrap because it's equated with religious cults and prisoners of war. But the reality is, brainwashing can be GREAT! I did it to quit smoking AND to quit my addiction to my PoA. Whether you believe it or not, tell yourself about a thousand times a day that: THERE IS NOTHING TO BE GAINED FROM HOLDING ON WHEN I LET GO, I WILL BE SAFE LETTING GO IS THE KEY TO MY HEALTH AND FREEDOM LETTING GO IS NOT SCARY I AM STRONG I CAN HANDLE THIS I AM POWERFUL I AM COURAGEOUS... and so on. Over all you want to break down the SELF, and then REBUILD THE SELF with more positive beliefs. The mind is clever though. Studies prove that we are predisposed to being narrow-minded and believing what we always tend to believe, whether it's right or wrong (think of the culture of slavery or keeping women at home, or the false belief that women should not vote. Those beliefs were so ingrained in us that they were hard to change). So...that being said, depending on your unwillingness to change your perspective of things, that will determine the amount of energy you put into to trying to change. Or, as my mother always used to say, "When you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, it is then that you will do something about your life."  My point is, change is POSSIBLE, and though you might be frustrated now, it's because you are already on the precipice of change. It's only a matter of time. I hope some of this helps! T |
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Post by walkingonwater on Dec 22, 2009 11:13:48 GMT -8
I kind of agree with telmita but I know that agreement changes all the time! So sometimes I will be in the throes of agony and drama and other times I will be rational and realise that what I was doing was pointless. Those are just two mood swings but there are a lot more!! I wish I was a bit more stable but I do just fluctuate in how I feel and what I think about it.
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Post by LovelyJune on Dec 22, 2009 16:30:10 GMT -8
feelingcrazy, I sware my whole life was all about my severe mood swings. I tried everything to control them: diet, drugs, meditation, hormone therapy. I even went to a psychiatrist and a medical doctor because my mood swings were so bad. I felt out of control, senseless. Then suddenly, I left my PoA and stopped obsessing over him. My entire life CHANGED. I have not had any severe mood swings for an entire year. Yes, I still get moody. Yes, I still get PMS. But it's mild and predictable and it never interferes with my life. Look into getting rid of the PoA and your whole life could change too!
When you are doing right by your head and your heart and your mind, body and spirit are in complete alignment, you WILL feel stable, I promise you. It's not hooey!
T
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Post by gratefulheart on Dec 22, 2009 20:17:32 GMT -8
Telmita,
I appreciate your response. You are very right; it is all crazy making behavior and being overly dramatic.
I always gain a lot of perspective when I can see someone's strength that has been before me and understands the highs and lows and the triumph over this addiction.
Logically, i know that my feelings are overdramatic and i know they are very childlike. I know my emotional growth in intimacy was severely stunted. I guess you could say I was not successfully launched into independence and feeling secure enough to let go of someone's hand and be me and have a life, without always looking back and wondering if my parents were still there. I was actually, more or less, stripped from any foundation of trust and security right at the moment i was developing my own identity from my parents.
One night, my uncle decided to take my innocence away and half of my family deserted me because of the shame involved with seeing me. I reminded them of what they were trying to hide. This was just when I was becoming someone.. finding out who I was.. I was only a child.
Since that point, I have handled my inability to truly connect with others, esp men by getting my needs met in a fantasy world where no one would ever leave me or hurt me again.
It's only now that I'm ready to give myself the gift to live my life for a greater purpose than to suffer.
I feel like in my recovery, I go back and forth between the strong, emerging woman i am meant to be.. and who aches to be free.. and the traumatized fourteen year old who is reliving abandonment, shame and fear and grieving through these men..
I also thankful that i can recognize that, while my POA's mean something to me, the extent of the crazy making behavior and grief is not even completely about them. The root is a child wound that has had me believing that love addiction is the only way to survive.
As you said, it's time to de-brainwash. It is a grueling process to say the least but one that I'm firmly devoted to and hopeful for.. that things will get better because I finally understand what's wrong and what's abnormal and want to change. Thank you for helping me to see that.
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godsguy
Full Member
Prayer Requests
GOD IS LOVE!
Posts: 146
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Post by godsguy on Dec 23, 2009 0:57:38 GMT -8
greatfulheart,
I appreciate what you said about refusing to believe that your love wasn't enough. That is so true in my life and relationships.(all of them.)
I have not realized this, as much self-honesty as I have had in recovery. Thanks.
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Post by strummergirl on Dec 23, 2009 5:46:05 GMT -8
besatt, thank you for the topic. I recognized myself immediately in what you asked. I sat on the pain for so many years and ignored it for exactly the reason you stated, because to talk about it meant being told "Oh, just get over it already". I wouldn't say I felt guilty, but I did feel ashamed at my inability to recover from the loss, and had no idea how to "fix" what was wrong with me because no one else knew what I was talking about.
gratefulheart, as usual there is so much I can relate to in what you say. I read somewhere on this site once that "longing isn't love" and I remember being surprised at first because I always thought it was. It said, it's really a longing for what we didn't get as children. It's taking me a long time to see that, but it's finally coming.
The relationship with my POA happened when I was very young and emotionally starved from having two very self-absorbed and troubled parents. When I lost him, too, I had no idea how to "get over it". All I knew is that it was a mountain of grief and that no one understood why it was so hard for me. So I pushed it away and tried to forget about him but it never really went away.
For many years I worked the 12 steps through AA, which also seemed to help greatly to take my mind off the POA and get on with my life. So I agree very much with lots of what Telmita is saying. She sounds a lot like my first AA sponsor who helped me immeasurably and I will always be grateful to for helping save my life, by grounding me in "today" and building up my self and my self-esteem.
But then the old grief resurfaced a couple of years ago. For me, it is not about being overly dramatic, this is about very real pain that will not be ignored any longer. I've done a lot of researching since then trying to heal this once and for all. I've read tons of stuff on attachment theory and childhood trauma and can identify so much of what has always seemed mysterious. I'm connecting the dots and finally seeing that my grief over the POA is really about the hunger I experienced as a kid but never could acknowledge. It is one thing to believe it but very empowering to finally see it for what it really is on a gut level.
There is a woman I met in another forum whose therapy took her back to grieve specific things she didn't get as a child, in the safety and containment of therapy. This resonated strongly with me as something I now need to do and now I have a therapist with whom I can do it. At one time in my recovery, I would have thought that this kind of work was just wallowing or blaming my parents, but it's not that at all. It's about acknowledging the pain I experienced as a child, that I've denied for so long, and grieving the way I need to so I can finally "get over it". And as I do, the seemingly insurmountable mountain that I thought was my POA is getting smaller, down to his right size, because I'm treating the real problem this time.
There is a book Susan Peabody has recommended several times that speaks to this idea. I've just recently read it and I'm so glad I did. It's called The Drama of the Gifted Child. It's a tough read, in my opinion, and I would not have been ready for this kind of work until now.
I'm so grateful for this site and for you all. Thanks for being here and sharing your stories.
SG
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Post by not2bforgot10x on Dec 30, 2009 15:48:06 GMT -8
I watched a podcast about complicated grief, recently. It talked about how important it is when you lose someone (not just from death) to grieve them properly. They said it was important to talk about the person you lost to someone, especially the good things. It occurred to me that we torch bearers can't do that; it's not appropriate to talk about or we feel guilty about it. Maybe that's why we have a hard time letting go even when someone has left our life? Any thoughts? I would love to see the podcast. I have complicated grief... delayed, rather. I lost my father 7 years ago and have not been able to grieve. He had a heart attack, and I found him dead the next day... My family shunned and shamed me after the incident occurred... rather, my mother, who is codependent and narcissistic. Anyway, she shamed me at my father's death (they were divorced; I lived with my father), while standing in the room with all of these strangers and the coroner , looking right into my father's eyes... it was very traumatizing for me. I was young and naive, and I didn't know that people excrete fluids when they die... I asked the question, and was yelled at for it. To say the least, I would love to learn more about complicated,"delayed" grief. Is it the same thing? I have read a little about it... The thing is, I am so numb I cannot grieve... I am not even sure what stage I am in? Maybe my inability to grieve has something to do with my inner child not feeling "safe" enough to grieve yet? ...not feeling supported enough, or the right kind of support? I'm not sure... I just know that I want to grieve, but I don't feel ready yet... I do not trust easily; both, myself and others... mostly others. Again, maybe I need to trust --others and myself, more before this process can happen? Perhaps getting emotionally sober would help. Thank you for sharing. |
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Post by geedee on Jan 5, 2010 8:52:48 GMT -8
i lost my brother 30 years ago. I never grieved that properly. my parents decided to fly his body back to their country of origin. my mother still says to me sometimes that i was wrong not to want to see my brother's corpse. I think she holds it against me.
I was forced to dress in black for a while and I was humiliated because that was just not done in the UK. I still feel that shame. at that time i was seeing a boy I went to school with. he dumped me while i was still grieving for my brother...the same guy that came back into my life recently after 29 yrs since i last spoke to him because he wanted to say he was sorry for hurting me back then. the same man who became my POA.
over the past few years in our family we've had so many deaths from cancer, one suicide, a motorbike accident(17 yr old boy) and lots more. we're a very big close knit family and funerals mean sitting by the body and praying all night in this country. you take it in your stride after a while
you get used to death and see that when there is no longer life or a soul in a body we really are nothing at all. just an empty shell...
greta
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Post by lotus on Jan 5, 2010 13:01:04 GMT -8
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Post by ok2bme on Jan 6, 2010 0:39:22 GMT -8
Delayed grief is interesting. My parents split when I was 2, my dad was out of the picture completely till I was 45. I remembered him & I would ask for him, my mom would reply with things like "what dad?" this went on for years..maybe I never grieved for him because I learned to pretend he did not exist, even though secretly I knew he did. With my current PoA I lacked anger & had an unusually extremely high tolerance to what I'd normally consider a deal breaker.
I would go through things during my weekly withdrawals but anger never came up. That baffled the few friends I had. A best friend would raise her voice to me, "get angry!!" "why doesn't it make you angry that he does these things?" I would not get angry, could not even fake it. I couldn't explain why either. I'm thinking it was because I felt like it was 100% my fault for being obsessed with him, knowing he wasn't good to or for me, so any thing that would anger me would be pressed down with, it's my fault, how can I be angry at him because I go back for more.
Then it was also because even if I did get hurt, depressed or upset with one of his ignore or invite/flake episodes, I'd know that if I expressed anything not agreeable to him, he would go away & I could not bare the thought...so no anger there only anger turned in-depression. So, I'm thinking that prevented me from moving through too.
"For me, it is not about being overly dramatic, this is about very real pain that will not be ignored any longer." I totally get that. I feel to be over the top in opening up, but then feel like there was so much pent up it pops out like a champaigne bottle being opened.
I've read all the posts on this thread. They are all helpful for going through it.
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Post by primrose on Jan 18, 2010 3:54:39 GMT -8
Hi strummergirl, what an amazing post. I've done primal therapy, and will be doing more when I can afford it, is this the therapy you are refering to? I went back to early trauma and relived it in order to integrate it, it really works for me, and now I do it myself and in my regular therapy. Alice Miller is one of my favourite authors! I love her work. I hope you get loads from doing primal if that's what you intend to do. Talking therapy has never been enough for me, I need to get on the floor of my therapist's room and wail myself through and out of my feelings, bit extreme I know, but it shifts it for me. besatt, thank you for the topic. I recognized myself immediately in what you asked. I sat on the pain for so many years and ignored it for exactly the reason you stated, because to talk about it meant being told "Oh, just get over it already". I wouldn't say I felt guilty, but I did feel ashamed at my inability to recover from the loss, and had no idea how to "fix" what was wrong with me because no one else knew what I was talking about. gratefulheart, as usual there is so much I can relate to in what you say. I read somewhere on this site once that "longing isn't love" and I remember being surprised at first because I always thought it was. It said, it's really a longing for what we didn't get as children. It's taking me a long time to see that, but it's finally coming. The relationship with my POA happened when I was very young and emotionally starved from having two very self-absorbed and troubled parents. When I lost him, too, I had no idea how to "get over it". All I knew is that it was a mountain of grief and that no one understood why it was so hard for me. So I pushed it away and tried to forget about him but it never really went away. For many years I worked the 12 steps through AA, which also seemed to help greatly to take my mind off the POA and get on with my life. So I agree very much with lots of what Telmita is saying. She sounds a lot like my first AA sponsor who helped me immeasurably and I will always be grateful to for helping save my life, by grounding me in "today" and building up my self and my self-esteem. But then the old grief resurfaced a couple of years ago. For me, it is not about being overly dramatic, this is about very real pain that will not be ignored any longer. I've done a lot of researching since then trying to heal this once and for all. I've read tons of stuff on attachment theory and childhood trauma and can identify so much of what has always seemed mysterious. I'm connecting the dots and finally seeing that my grief over the POA is really about the hunger I experienced as a kid but never could acknowledge. It is one thing to believe it but very empowering to finally see it for what it really is on a gut level. There is a woman I met in another forum whose therapy took her back to grieve specific things she didn't get as a child, in the safety and containment of therapy. This resonated strongly with me as something I now need to do and now I have a therapist with whom I can do it. At one time in my recovery, I would have thought that this kind of work was just wallowing or blaming my parents, but it's not that at all. It's about acknowledging the pain I experienced as a child, that I've denied for so long, and grieving the way I need to so I can finally "get over it". And as I do, the seemingly insurmountable mountain that I thought was my POA is getting smaller, down to his right size, because I'm treating the real problem this time. There is a book Susan Peabody has recommended several times that speaks to this idea. I've just recently read it and I'm so glad I did. It's called The Drama of the Gifted Child. It's a tough read, in my opinion, and I would not have been ready for this kind of work until now. I'm so grateful for this site and for you all. Thanks for being here and sharing your stories. SG |
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Post by shatteredpieces on Feb 4, 2010 23:32:10 GMT -8
OK2bme - I found it interesting what you said about not getting angry. This week in therapy, my therapist kept asking me "didnt that make you mad?" ... to whatever I was sharing at the time. I would just say "no, they did the best with what they knew." This was referring to a school counselor, or my parents or my POA, or anyone else that she apparently thought I should be mad at. Seems I would always justify it with, "no, they just did their best..." She found it interesting that nothing seemed to make me mad.
I remembered that when I read your post. Maybe this is common among LAs that being angry requires us to feel like we are right and someone else is wrong and we just don't have enough self-confidence to view things that way? I dont know... I just thought it was interesting that you said that.
Shattered pieces
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Post by ok2bme on Feb 5, 2010 0:26:18 GMT -8
ShatteredPieces,
Not sure that it's common to lack anger in the addiction.
For me, it felt like I knew we were both wrong. How he treated me was wrong. I could not get mad because he would not tolerate it, he would go away.
I think (new) that may relate to my mom disowning me several times over the years. Since 17 if she disagreed or got upset about something, there was no conversation, she would just stop all contact with me & I would also not be allowed to family holiday gatherings cuz they were held at her house. It would be over some very small things too.
He showed me from the beginning, he would walk away in a minute if it was anything less then agreeable to him. I could not handle him walking away, so anger at his inconsiderations were not allowed...I would not even allow anger alone in my own head...for fear it would lead to me saying something & having him go away while I was addicted.
Today I do not allow free fantasies to rome in my head, for fear of where they can lead. I always had it in me to be deciplined with my thoughts/feelings but used it to keep him.
When I first posted about lack of anger I did not have a clue on why...today I have some idea. Now that I have been relieved from the obsession, I still do not feel angry toward him...He has his own issues that will come with their own set of consequences.
The only anger I've felt for any length of time has been toward me, like before I still think I could have handled myself better than I did. But moving forward...
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Post by perfectday on Feb 5, 2010 1:18:46 GMT -8
Shattered Pieces, I don't know if this applies to you but I read about 'feelings rackets'. It's where we have been brought up not being allowed to feel certain things or we would be shamed so we turned the emotions into something else.
I wasn't allowed to be angry (dad had the monopoly on that) so I have turned my anger into sadness. That was allowed because it was quiet and a solo occupation. It didn't bother them.
When I am angry now it is such a small thing compared to other people I know. It turns into grief immediately. My therapist says my anger is there, as rage, but I don't recognise it. If I could get to it in its pure state I could feel better.
I don't know if that's your experience. I do think we are afraid to feel our anger.
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Post by shatteredpieces on Feb 5, 2010 6:38:46 GMT -8
That's it! I was never allowed to express anger at all. Interesting. ..I guess eventually it comes out in some way. Is it a necessary emotion. I am realizing that even in disagreements with my H I just shut down and go to another room. I really don't know how to be angry. Interesting. ...
Shattered pieces
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Post by primrose on Feb 5, 2010 11:06:27 GMT -8
It'll come in time don't worry, and hold onto your hat when it does! My first sponsor in alanon told me to prepare for it as I started to get well. I thought I wasn't angry AT ALL. Phew was I wrong! One great thing though about it coming up and being released though, is that the snappiness\irritability that I had with my husband (poor man) has virtually gone. It's rare for me to whine and have that low level depression these days.
But getting in touch with anger is hard if you've got unfelt rage from childhood to process (hence my hit-the-sodding-roof post from this morning) Sometimes I go BOOM over things as I'm still overwhelmed by early rage. But I would never show that to another person now (except in therapy).
You'll get in touch with it when you're ready. I am just starting to get in touch with my feelings of love for my mother. They've been buried very deeply under other feelings. I love my mother, that's so alien to me and so extraordinary. Has taken me such a long time to feel it. Strangely, in my family, love for her was even more taboo than anger. Best. Primrose.
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My point is, change is POSSIBLE, and though you might be frustrated now, it's because you are already on the precipice of change. It's only a matter of time. 
