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Post by Angel on Feb 5, 2010 8:44:36 GMT -8
Ok so I accept that LA affects all aspects in my life and part of being able to be in a relationship is knowing how to deal with friendships with the opposite sex.
So... what happened this morning is that I opened my msn and discovered a message from a guy who I know but to my knowledge has never really been serious about me. He has flirted with me but since he flirts and has tried to pick up most of my female friends I didn't take him in the slightest seriousness!
He was obviously very angry and upset. Told me that he didn't care what I thought about him (Yeah well why send me a message about it?) and that my opinion meant nothing to him and that I had a problem with my head (yes I do but what is it to you?). I didn't know what the hell he was talking about and told him that the only conversation I had had about him with someone else was along the lines of : V is very, handsome, intelligent and strong, it is a shame that being in N hasn't brought out the best in him. I said this because I thought someone had told tales to him. Turns out that he felt I had slighted him some five or six weeks earlier! I found this out as he responded and started to chat to me on msn.
At first he was angry and upset, then I told him off! I told him that if he had been a true friend he would have known what I was going through and the reason I didn't go near him was because I didn't feel safe. That his behaviour right now was also not making me feel safe!
I angrily clikcked off and fumed for a long time. I was very upset, for most of the afternoon and evening in fact. After my Alanon meeting I thought seriously about things and decided that my best option was to accept my part and apologise for it. Also, since he is uncertain whether we are or are not friends, I decided to write him a letter and make it very clear what I expected from my guy friends.
Here it is;
Dear V,
I am sorry to hear that you are upset with me. I must confess however, I am not really very clear why you feel that way.
To be perfectly honest, about three-four months ago I decided to sit back and see exactly whether my male friends were genuinely into being friends with me or not. I deliberately waited to see who did and who didn’t make an effort. Those who did, I carried on being friends with them, those who didn’t got put into a different basket! I was seriously shocked when you sent me that message on msn because as far as I had been aware, since you didn’t make much of an effort, my friendship didn’t really mean that much to you.
Yes perhaps you are correct, I did ignore you and S! You were both walking towards me and I as I looked up neither of you acknowledged me or made an effort to come over to where I was sitting in L. I had had four months of incredible stress in my life and In the split second it took both of you to look at me and not acknowledge me I decided it wasn’t worth the effort to be the one to initiate it as I didn’t feel safe near either of you.
I have given it a lot of thought and basically in order for me to feel safe around my guy friends they need to make me feel as though they ARE a friend.
• He asks after me and my children’s welfare. (M, A and D always do this!)
• If he knows I am in trouble he either offers some advice or just to listen and encourage me in solving it myself.
• He lets me know what is happening in his life and keeps me informed of important events.
• He contacts me at least once every couple of months just to say hi! (L, S, X and D all do this!) If we don’t hear from one of our friends we KNOW that there is a problem – guys can pick up with each other wherever they like but if a woman doesn’t hear from a guy she assumes he isn’t into being friends with her!
• He contacts me on special occasions to wish me happy birthday/Merry Xmas/Happy New Year (W and X always do this!)
• He invites me to functions even knowing that I probably can’t go cos I have kids (but it is nice to know he thinks of me!)
• He doesn’t talk about his sexual exploits and conquests in my presence. (Little boys kiss and tell but men don’t!). Talking about relationships however, is different!
• He comes and talks to me if he thinks there is a problem between us (strangely those who need to do this never do!)
• He doesn’t change his behaviour towards me if he gets/changes girlfriends.
• If he sees I am cold, tired or hungry he will most likely express concern and/or do something about it. (J always offers his coat if he sees I am cold and I don’t care what anyone else thinks but chivalry is SERIOUSLY sexy!)
• He keeps his hands to himself but will give me a big man hug when I need it (M, A, D and J!)
• He not only makes an effort to come and say hello but he usually makes a seat for me to join him. (J does this a lot)
• He offers me a drink even knowing I don’t drink alcohol (D always does this)
I realise that you have no idea of the trouble that I have been in these last few months with the divorce/business/finances, but seriously if you had been a friend you would have known anyway cos you would have asked.
I realise after reading your message and thinking about it, that perhaps if I felt safer around you I wouldn’t have reacted in that way. Unfortunately I cannot force myself to feel safe – I either feel safe or I do not!
So saying that, I still accept responsibility for the fact that you feel as if you have been slighted. I am sorry you feel like that. I hope that you have gotten over it and you enjoy your holiday.
Kind regards,
Angel
(Comments appreciated, as I have given myself 24 hours before sending it to him!)
P.s. This is funny cos I sent my POA a bday wish expecting to have to deal with that and now I have been propelled further in my recovery by having to make amends to this other guy and also make amends to MYSELF in setting boundaries!
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Post by newborn on Feb 5, 2010 9:15:18 GMT -8
I think your note is wonderful! It will be at least a year before I'm ready to have any type of romantic interaction - or even a face-to-face friendship - with a man, but I wanted to copy what you've written as inspiration.  |
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Post by ok2bme on Feb 5, 2010 10:01:10 GMT -8
Angel,
I found your list very uplifting. True in reflection my exPoA did not make the cut BUT it brought up men that actually are my friends, caring & considerate just as I am to them. It made me feel good that all was not lost in love & war (Love Addiction) as thought.
Inside I knew to exchange these things in a friendship but wow, when addiction kicked in, it became no matter what. No Matter What is a sign to get away today, instead of a determination to win & change his heart. Phewy, that was exhausting & felt like crud.
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Post by primrose on Feb 5, 2010 11:36:51 GMT -8
Hmmm I guess I'm not the best person to have clarity around this kind of issue as I'm an avoidant and get very triggered by people telling me what they want from a friendship. So, bearing that in mind and knowing that what I say may be my own projections, here's what I think.
If I knew you didn't drink, I wouldn't offer you a drink.
Chivalry may well be sexy, but why would you tell a guy that if you didn't want him to treat you in a sexual way?
Saying "my friend so and so does this" can be a way of laying a guilt trip on people. I'm not saying it is here, but how would you feel if a friend said "you don't do this jane\susan do do it for me" I've had that from LA friends and it's not nice!
You want no wandering hands but a big man hug. To me this sounds a bit odd Angel. it just sounds a bit intrigue-y to me, a bit little girl "no sex but be my safe daddy"
Now please know I struggle with being overwhelmed by perceived (and real) demands for perfect care in relationships, so if what I've written doesn't ring true for you, feel free to disregard it. Recovery in relationships is a process after all, and I'm still in a process with it myself. Best. Primrose.
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Post by ok2bme on Feb 5, 2010 11:51:08 GMT -8
I was thinking these were all fine in an equal natural exchange. They are also very close to friendships with my girl friends. Not things I have to ask for, just equal exchanges of consideration.
Um the drink, I don't usually drink but am not an alcoholic so that went over my head first read. Very interesting though.
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Post by geedee on Feb 5, 2010 11:58:16 GMT -8
i agree with Primrose I think Angel. your email is very clear but don't you think it is more to yourself than to this guy? he was hurting I think and sounds a bit LA to me. he might just be really vulnerable right now and not able to express his feelings? I wouldn't like to receive a list of rules telling me what you expected from me, nor would i ever send one to you ...friendships are built really slowly and there's a lot of give and take involved. easy does it...and don't send it before you get a chance to talk about it properly to all those that care about you. me included  Think this could be you bombing him without him being the real enemy? greta |
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Post by Angel on Feb 5, 2010 19:17:19 GMT -8
Dear Primrose and Greta,
I wrote this before I went to bed and had realised all the things you said even before reading your postings. But thanks for your confirmations!
Firstly, Yes I agree there is no need to tell him what my bottom line is for a guy friend - THIS LIST IS FOR ME!!!!! It is about me making it clear what I expect from my guy friends. I think my reaction was rather extreme but still it was understandable. This is the guy who said when I parked my car at the church one evening that it was a 'great place to have a quickie!'. Seriously, I don't think he KNOWS how to be friends with a woman but IF he is sincere he will ask or try and make an effort. Then feedback is important.
You are right about bombing him. That isn't what making amends is about. So saying that have a look at these.
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Post by Angel on Feb 5, 2010 19:19:32 GMT -8
THE LETTER MAKING MY AMENDS TO HIM (yes he does deserve the effort, making amends is about me and my karma!)
Dear V,
I am sorry to hear that you are upset with me. To be perfectly honest, I have been re-evaluating my friendships and thinking a lot about who are and who aren¡¦t my friends based on how they treat me. As such, I was seriously shocked when you sent me that message on msn because as far as I had been aware you didn¡¦t consider me much more than just an acquaintance.
Yes, perhaps you are correct, I did ignore you and S! You were both walking towards me and as I looked up neither of you acknowledged me or made an effort to come over to where I was sitting in L. I recently had had four months of incredible stress in my life and In the split second it took both of you to look at me and not acknowledge me I decided I didn¡¦t feel very safe doing it myself so I looked away.
To be fair on you both, I realise that neither of you had any idea of the trouble that I have been in these last few months with the divorce/business/finances. I realise after reading your message and thinking about it, I realise my reaction was extreme but somewhat understandable considering where I was coming from.
So saying, I do however accept responsibility for the fact that you feel as if you have been slighted. I am sorry you feel like that! I hope that you have gotten over it and that you enjoy your holiday.
Kind regards,
Angel
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Post by Angel on Feb 5, 2010 19:27:10 GMT -8
¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K¡K
My bottom line for guy friends. (I don¡¦t need to put these in the letter, just acknowledging them as mine is sufficient!)
They need to have at least two or three of these. The more they have the closer I will let them get and the more I will consider them as a friend. If they do the OPPOSITE of these then I will consider them as toxic and a person to stay away from. There is no need for me to send them this but if they ask I am happy to tell them this is what I expect from them. Perhaps even just let them know when they do something on the list and tell them how much I appreciate it is sufficient for them to keep on doing it!
I have given it a lot of thought and basically in order for me to feel safe around my guy friends they need to make me feel as though they ARE a friend. These are the things that my guy friends do that make me feel that they are concerned about me. They are in effect the things that make me feel SAFE.
1 He asks after me and my children¡¦s welfare. (M, A and D always do this!)
2 He acknowledges my presences and initiates contact and doesn¡¦t expect me to do it all the time.
3 If he knows I am in trouble he either offers some advice or he just listens and encourages me in solving it myself.
4 He calls me on my nuts and tells me when I am doing something dumb/dangerous! (A, D and J do this)
5 Knowing that it is hard for me to get out (being a single mum) he calls around and has a coffee (D and B do this!)
6 He lets me know what is happening in his life and keeps me informed of important events (D does this).
7 He contacts me at least once every couple of months just to say hi! (L, S, X and D all do this!) If we don¡¦t hear from one of our friends we KNOW that there is a problem ¡V guys can pick up with each other wherever they like but if a woman doesn¡¦t hear from a guy she assumes he isn¡¦t into being friends with her!
8 He contacts me on special occasions to wish me happy birthday/Merry Xmas/Happy New Year (W and X always do this!)
9 He invites me to functions even knowing that I probably can¡¦t go cos I have kids (but it is nice to know he thinks of me!)
10 He doesn¡¦t talk about his sexual exploits and conquests in my presence. (Little boys kiss and tell but men don¡¦t!). Talking about relationships however, is different!
11 He comes and talks to me if he thinks there is a problem between us (strangely those who need to do this never do!)
12 He doesn¡¦t change his behaviour towards me if he gets/changes girlfriends.
13 If he sees I am cold, tired or hungry he will most likely express concern and/or do something about it. (J always offers his coat if he sees I am cold and I don¡¦t care what anyone else thinks but chivalry is SERIOUSLY sexy!)
14 He keeps his hands to himself but will give me a big man hug when I need it (M, A, D and J!) I am in a strange community. We have a LOT of Europeans here. We usually kiss hello and this maybe two-three kisses depending on where the person is from. We also hug! Hugs however are for very very close friends and are NOT sexual in any way shape or form. If a guy hugs and his hands 'roam' and it has happened to me before, the next time he DOESN'T get a hug!
15 He not only makes an effort to come and say hello but he usually makes a seat for me to join him. (J does this a lot)
16 He offers me a drink even knowing I don¡¦t drink alcohol (D always does this - but it is always softdrink!! LOL)
You know I am really grateful this guy 'bombed' me. If he hadn't I wouldn't have taken the time to think about things and clarify in my mind what a guy friend is to me. I think that this will help others too, particularly the women members of our forum cos we have a tendency to be very wishy washy about how guys treat us. Maybe for the guys too it will give them an idea of what to do if they want to be friends with a woman. Most of us haven't got a clue!
Please feel free to make your own list and add your own ideas. Telmita has done lists of what she thinks is suitable for her in values from a guy based on having a relationship. But seriously I think that MOST of us need to get our friendships sorted out FIRST before going into a relationship. This isn't THAT much different, there is just less expectations and haha no sex!!!
Angel
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Post by Angel on Feb 5, 2010 19:51:14 GMT -8
You know it is funny but this guy has a lot of really good characteristics. Sadly he has some really bad ones as well. He smokes (a LOT) and although he doesn't drink all the time when he does he gets completely WASTED.
He works out to counterbalance that but it is no use. He just has too many other addictions. I agree he probably is LA. He is the most reknown Don Juan here where I am. He also spends all his time sitting and talking to a bunch of other (boys) who recount all their sexual exploits with the local women. He has contacted me in the past and asked me why he can't keep a gf. The problem being that he gets bored with them after two years! He has been known to cheat. He is a single child who always got what he wanted whether it was good for him or not!
He doesn't understand why I am not interested in him! One day at the gym I walked up and said hello and he fell off his treadmill. He tried to do a 'recovery' and look cool but he was sooo flustered. Later he came over and was talking to me. He started to tell me about his job, how much money he was paid, the benefits (car, travel, holidays, paid apartment etc), that he invested all his money and had an amazing financial portfolio (cos all his expenses were covered by his job). I sat there listening to his 'bloke-a-log' (when a guy tells a girl how wonderful he is!) and wondered whether he was trying to pick me up or whether he was applying for a bank loan!
I feel sorry for him cos he isn't reaching his personal potential. Unlike the other women here however, I don't feel that I have to save him or change him. Personallly, I think it rather boring to have to be the good woman bringing the good guy out of the bad guy! I think it much more fun bringing the bad boy out of the good boy ;-) I guess that is why I liked my POA he was a dork and sweet.
I seriously wonder if the sort of guy I need maybe is a blend of the good things in this one and the good in my POA. Seriously though, my POA had many of the same good points, in fact he DID have all this ones good points!!
Sigh, doesn't matter. One day at a time and first things first. Straighten out me, straighten out my female friendships and now straighten out my guy friendships before even considering a relationship with a guy!
Hugs to all
Angel
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Post by ok2bme on Feb 6, 2010 1:01:12 GMT -8
Oh wow, thought the list was from someplace & you identified with it. I sure did. Tonight watching DVR TV, Pink said her dad told her to list 20 things she'd want in the other person & then be sure she has them first. I liked your list, thought it was very reasonable for both parties...but I'll think of one too. :-)
Funny, I'm not attracted to "saving a guy"...that I know of...but I do tend to take their issues as a flaw in myself. I see they have issues but after I am with them, think it's my fault they still have them, I wasn't enough...hmm. Interesting. For certain, the steps & better understanding of me first.
My H (nice) & exPoA (mean) were both "cool guys"...makes me feel uncool that I could not keep their attention. Guess I'm attracted to cool..that's a start.
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Post by perfectday on Feb 6, 2010 1:20:53 GMT -8
Dear Angel, You're reminding me of me. I would write one email so long and full of drama. And I would read it later and see how over the top it was so make it shorter. If I was lucky and hadn't sent it yet I would make it shorter. So many words for people who are not important, and I have hardly any words for the people who are, because they're no work for me. They don't push my buttons. They just love me. I can't be friends with men for this very reason. This is where I go. All that thinking about someone who is only an acquaintance. |
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Post by geedee on Feb 6, 2010 1:23:04 GMT -8
love the version of the letter you finally decided to send!
hugs
greta
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Post by Angel on Feb 6, 2010 6:24:21 GMT -8
Dear Perfectday and Greta,
I always remind myself "Angel, WHO are you doing this for?" If you are doing it for them (to control, win approval, get pity, etc) then I don't do it. If it is for ME then I do it. That is the big difference in my actions. If I am ready to do something (I am usually not until it is thrust upon me) then I do it. I am also finding that I am learning to hold back and 'think, think, think' before I do things. I LIKE having angels. They are like the little consciences that appear on a characters shoulder in the cartoons that tell them what to do. Mine are just THERE. I even have permission to make mistakes! Which is a good thing, cos if we felt we had to wait until we could do things perfectly before we did them, nothing would get done.
I have actually spent more time thinking about this guy than I really thought was necessary. I feel sorry for him in a way. He belongs to a set of guys who get all the women they want but they find that they don't want them much after a while. It is really intense but short lived. I remember on New Year's Eve he walked into the bar I was with my friends in (drinking my tonic water haha) and part of his greeting was to gently stroke my cheek and smile fondly at me! I was dumbstruck! I don't know what brought it on but it was a bit weird. I don't mind being friends with him, in fact he would be good fun, I just don't want him to get the idea that I want to date him. That same night he was in the bar with his latest gf and they were all over each other - they were all arms and legs all over the place! So that is why I don't take his behaviour quite so seriously!
Unfortunately, this isn't the first time he has done something like this - it is in fact the third incident like this. I was thinking today how LA it all is. I mean this incident that upset him happened nearly six weeks ago and I haven't seen him since then. So he held onto his resentment for that long and then finally 'bombed' me before going off on holidays. I thought he was a SA but this... no this is definitely LA behaviour.
One of my POA was at the bar I was in tonight. We were having a going away party for a friend. I saw him and nodded to him, at least acknowledged him. I know he isn't happy with the distance but seriously, he makes no effort to BE a friend to me. I don't see why I have to expend effort on men who think that the women should be pandering to them all the time. There are plenty of local women to bolster their ego - I personally don't think it is a good idea for anyone to receive such attention. If you are LA then praise and compliments can act like a drug to us - it is toxic!
Finally, I think that I will just leave this guy alone but if he wants to speak to me I will be honest about my feelings (I have none!). Same goes for my older POA, if he wants to be friends then I want him to show me that he IS a friend. Guess that the same would go for my latest POA too. Really not sure what is going to happen there. Once again, just feel sad!
At least this little 'tempest in a teapot' was enough to distract me for 24 hours LOL
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Post by primrose on Feb 6, 2010 13:59:35 GMT -8
Hey angel, sounds like you're working out what's right for you, and I think that's a good list for YOU, like you say. One thing I've learnt from recovery is that not everyone is able to communicate healthily and sometimes "healthy" communication is confusing for people who're not working on themselves. So I try and keep the way I speak person-appropriate. I work with a lot of rough and ready craftsmen. I keep my boundaries pretty well these days (had a lot of practice) but I never use therapy-speak with them. They understand boundaries when they're set, but they wouldn't understand me if I spoke to them the way I speak to people I know from 12 step. Early in my process I thought it was very important to use therapy-speak in all my relationships, and I did, and actually I wasn't taking into consideration that different environments have different rules. I felt I was healthy and expected everyone to communicate my way. But actually, it was just my way! So I learned the hard way that I needed to stop being right all the time. I also found out that revealing how astute I was at this recovery stuff wasn't in my best interests either. Not everyone is used to the deep and honest way I am able to communicate, and being honest and open with people who aren't used to it, can mean that people get very hooked on me. I have to be careful what I say and how I say it, because honesty can be hugely attractive to people. Sometimes not communicating well and being a bit dishonest isn't such a bad thing. It's very easy to feel that we must be ourselves and be truthful, but we're love addicts because our boundaries were broken and we don't know how to protect ourselves. Learning that is very important. Ha! Listen to me, saying dishonesty isn't so bad, how good is my recovery but honestly, one of the most compassionate pieces of advice I've had in recovery was when someone said to me "in relationships when someone isn't well, a compassionate lie is a very important tool" and in alanon the slogan "we can be right or we can be happy" has helped me a lot. Although I just about murdered the woman who said it to me first in a fit of righteous indignation! Best. Primrose. |
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weakandmeager
New Member
I will strive to be strongandmighty!
Posts: 9
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Post by weakandmeager on Feb 17, 2010 22:50:26 GMT -8
I'm sure this may not be the place to ask, maybe someone could lead me to where I could find this answer but, My PoA is a coworker who knows I am attracted to him (and also knows I'm married) and keeps is own personal boundries set. I attempted to set up my own boundaries today for the first time and I think I may have over done it. Instead of seeming casual, I felt I came off as being angry with him and very "cold shoulderish". We work in close proximity and are in a small group of people that we chat with and see every day (I often send him work related emails throughout the day). How do I effectively set boundaries that do not hinder the work relationship? I know having guy friends at this point is not an option (considering I haven't even completed step 1!) but it is okay to be "friendly" towards him???
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