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Post by Freetolive on Jul 11, 2011 13:06:29 GMT -8
I was listening to an Audio book today, No More Mr. Nice Guy." The author had examples of four men. He stated that all four men suffered from Toxic Shame. They did not feel like they were good enough, so part of their coping skills was to "be nice." Nice guys try to escape the belief that they aren't good enough as who they are.
The author states that toxic shame is a belief that one is bad,defective, different or unlovable. Toxic shame is not a belief that one does bad things, it's a deeply held core belief that one is bad. Then the author goes on to explain how children start to create survival skills to cover up.
I remember when I was in my teens. I was sent by juvenile court system to counseling for alcohol and drug problems. It was group sessions with my pear group. Guys from school. The counselor picked up on I had shame issues. She asked what I was so ashamed of. Of course at 15 or 16 I wasn't about to open up in front of my friends I was to busy trying to cover that stuff up. I can't wait until next weeks counseling appointment.
Anybody have any experience with this?
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Post by Susan Peabody on Jul 11, 2011 14:55:09 GMT -8
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Post by Freetolive on Jul 11, 2011 15:17:57 GMT -8
That was a great article. Thank you.
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Post by Freetolive on Jul 11, 2011 16:17:47 GMT -8
I told my inner child, the rejection he felt as a child was not his fault. He didn't do anything wrong when he was a child to deserve that. I know where all the hurt came from. When I was five or six. A little girl from across the street told me I was adopted. I ran home crying to my family, screaming to the top of my lungs what she had just told me. I was screaming for daddy to go beat her up. And then my mama said, yes you are adopted. Then daddy yelled at her for telling me, said he wanted me to think I was his. What a screwed up way to handle this major crisis. I don't remember anything else after that. I don't know if I went to my room or what. Maybe mama told me I was special, I was chosen, but i can't remember. All I know we never talked about it again. At least I can't remember. So it was like a hush hush thing. That is part of my past that i shamed me with. But it wasn't my fault. I am a good person. That was their stuff. Oh mom spoiled me, but I never felt right as a kid. Started getting fat and started acting out for attention. The vicious cycle had begun. A couple of months ago, after the breakup, i was writing in my journal and i wrote, "she took my shame, but now she is gone." That was an amazing discovery, I didn't realize what it meant until after today. I've been reading up on toxic shame. I think that is why I've been so obsessed over her. Maybe I put her in the place where my parents were. I let her deep inside me, like no one I've ever dated before. Glad i can start loving me today. I don't need her love to justify me. It would have been nice, but oh well. Life goes on. Glad I can change today and love me.
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Post by LovelyJune on Jul 12, 2011 3:09:33 GMT -8
I suggest "How to Win Friends and Influence People." by Carnegie. The title is not altogether misleading, but it addresses shame right at the start. I can't get enough of this book. I highly recommend.
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Post by tizzy on Jul 12, 2011 9:12:42 GMT -8
freetolive, you bright up a really good topic and some really deep insight. Thank you.
I know I definitely felt shame growing up. I was ashamed of how messed up my family was. This shame grew the older I got. I started seeing how everyone else's families were and I swear mine just took the cake. I didn't want anyone to know how messed up we were. Unfortunately I carried that shame into adulthood. I still carry quite a bit of it to this day, even though I am learning how to let it go. You are right in that the shame is not our fault. We couldn't control the family we were brought up in. We are not defective or unlovable because of our background. We can heal from it and be at peace with the wonderful people we are.
It's interesting that you say the authors mentioned how people use being "nice" to cover up shame. My goodness, this was so true for me! Just like the author said, I figured if I was really really nice to people they would like me despite how messed up I felt I was. Sometimes the niceness worked, sometimes it didn't. Thank HP for recovery. Recovery has given me the gift of knowing I am not "messed up" and that I can be who I am and feel confident in that. I don't need approval, love or validation from anyone else because I've learned how to give all of that to myself.
Great post, freetolive,. Thanks!
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Ophelia
Junior Member
It's a new day........
Posts: 66
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Post by Ophelia on Jul 12, 2011 9:20:38 GMT -8
"We are not defective or unlovable because of our background. We can heal from it and be at peace with the wonderful people we are."
My mind knows this is true, but my heart of hearts still struggles to believe this.
I guess this is why we obsess over other people. If we are nice enough and good enough and pretty enough....if we do do do for the PoA, and give all of ourselves away, they maybe, just maybe they will love us and prove to us that we are not defective or broken and unloveable.
I guess thats what I always felt.
How long does it take to stop feeling broken inside?
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Post by Freetolive on Jul 12, 2011 14:38:01 GMT -8
"How long does it take to stop feeling broken inside?"
I have no idea. i'm new to all of this. All I know is I can't keep trying to mask my feelings, while selling myself short. I have to love me and validate me. I deserve it and I want it. I went to clinicals today. It was a new site. There is a lady there that is head technician. Something about her triggers feelings of insecurity. She never said anything wrong to me, but my fear of not doing an xray correct and the fact that she didn't act a certain way to me as i expected had me slowly sliding into the "I'm no good" feeling. The other tech was sweet to me, so I tell myself she likes me. See, I'm still looking for someone to make me feel accepted because I'm still struggling with some low self esteem about my performance. So I am going to study tonight and try to do better tomorrow.
Not once did I try to stop the thoughts while I was there today. Not once did I pray and ask God for help. I kept struggling. I kept feeling stuck. I kept telling myself that i messed up taking this xray. That I don't like it. Over and over.
Finally when I left, I got to myself and started talking to myself in a healthy manner. I started to feel ok with myself.
It's sick how badly i worry about people rejecting me. I was even worried about them seeing me in my old car. That's sad. No wonder I've isolated so much in my life. Where I wouldn't have to deal with these feelings. But I wasn't getting any better, just staying stuck.
I almost forgot, before the day was over, my pain triggered me to start fantasizing about different women there. I'm glad I'm aware of the fantasy, I was able to pull myself back in. I learned that here. Thanks guys.
Today I want to change. I want to live.
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foolmetwice
Full Member
"A star danced, and under that was I born." Shakespeare
Posts: 196
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Post by foolmetwice on Jul 12, 2011 15:53:39 GMT -8
Thankyou for this topic, Free because I just made the statement, "I think I'm too defective" the other nite. I made it in response to a friend's comment. He said, " I think you want what all women want,,,,,,,,, a relationship with love and closeness with someone who remembers your birthday with flowers and is there for you, and etc.etc. My response was simply, " I think I'm too defective to have that. And I felt the truth of my statement and how sad it must have sounded, but the awareness felt okay because I can do something about it. I begin by giving it to myself starting today and by accepting no less from a relationship that asks me to give of myself.
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Ophelia
Junior Member
It's a new day........
Posts: 66
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Post by Ophelia on Jul 12, 2011 17:04:49 GMT -8
Thats right , Foolme. I told my PoA, when I dropped him, that I deserve to be with someone that will adore me and will put the same kind of devotion into the relationship that I put into it. I am going to hold out for that from now on. No more trying to get blood from a stone.
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Post by liveandlearn on Jul 12, 2011 17:11:07 GMT -8
That feeling of toxic shame, of feeling we aren't good enough, can be very debilitating. For me, I know I have to work at soothing my inner child/inner adolescent because this shame seems to be related to issues of self-rejection when I was growing up. laarecovery.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=talk&thread=9614&post=69218My way of coping with it was to shut myself off from everyone. Problem is that isn't the greatest strategy long term as that led to feeling isolated and probably just made things worse. Now I have to figure out how to 'undo' that. I'm not too sure how as it seems overwhelming. freetolive, I agree with you, we can't keep masking our feelings... I know I've repressed them for a long time and still afraid to feel them completely as I worry I won't be able to deal with them or that I will get 'caught' in them. That's what I'm working on this week but I have to say it's tough!
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Post by Freetolive on Jul 12, 2011 18:01:49 GMT -8
John Bradshaw has a book titled, "Healing the Shame that binds you."
Here is something he wrote in the section titled....PART II The Solution.
Introduction — The Externalization Process
To heal our toxic shame we must "come out of hiding. As long as our shame is hidden, there is nothing we can do about it. In order to change our toxic shame we must embrace it. There is an old therapeutic adage which states, "The only way out is through." Embracing our shame involves pain. Pain is what we try to avoid. In fact, most of our neurotic behavior is due to the avoidance of legitimate pain. We try to find an easier way. This is perfectly reasonable. However, as Scott Peck has said, "The tendency to avoid emotional suffering ... is the primary basis for all human mental illness." In the case of shame, the more we avoid it, the worse it gets. We cannot change our "internalized" shame until we "externalize" it. Doing the shame-reduction work is simple but difficult. It mainly involves what I call methods of externalization. Externalization methods include the following: 1. Coming out of hiding by social contact, which means honestly sharing our feelings with significant others. 2. Seeing ourselves minored and echoed in the eyes of at least one non-shaming person who is pan of our new family of affiliation. Reestablishing an "interpersonal bridge". 3. Working a 12-Step program. 4. Doing shame-reduction work by "legitimizing" our abandonment trauma. We do this by writing and talking about it. (Debriefing). Writing especially helps to externalize the past shaming experiences. 115 116 JOHN BRADSHAW We can then externalize our feelings about the abandonment. We can express them, clarify them and connect with them. 5. Externalizing our lost inner child. We do this by making conscious contact with the vulnerable child part of ourselves. 6. Learning to recognize various split-off parts of ourselves. As we make these parts conscious (externalize them), we can embrace and integrate them. 7. Making new decisions to accept all parts of ourselves with unconditional positive regard. Learning to say, "I love myself for . . ." Learning to externalize our needs and wants by becoming more self-assertive. 8. Externalizing old unconscious memories from the past, which form collages of shame scenes, and learning how to heal them. 9. Doing exercises to externalize our self-image and change it. 10. Externalizing the voices in our heads. These voices keep our shame spirals in operation. Doing exercises to stop our shaming voices and learning to replace them with new nurturing and positive voices. 11. Learning to be aware of certain interpersonal situations most likely to trigger shame spirals. 12. Learning how to deal with critical and shaming people by practicing assertive techniques and by creating an externalization shame anchor. 13- Learning how to handle our mistakes, and having the courage to be imperfect. 14. Finally, learning through prayer and meditation to create an inner place of silence wherein we are centered and grounded in a personally valued Higher Power.
All of these externalization methods have been adapted from the major schools of therapy. Most all therapies attempt to make that which is covert and unconscious, overt and conscious. These techniques can only be mastered by practice. You must do them, and reinforce them by doing them again. They will work if you will work.
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Post by liveandlearn on Jul 12, 2011 19:14:46 GMT -8
Thank you very much freetolive! This is exactly what I need to do! I was actually looking at taking a look at a book by John Bradshaw (Homecoming: Reclaiming and Championing your Inner Child). I will definitely take a look at this one too and try to practice those recommendations!
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Post by Freetolive on Jul 13, 2011 3:01:29 GMT -8
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Post by Freetolive on Jul 14, 2011 18:35:33 GMT -8
I'm really enjoying the audio book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. I believe men and woman both can get a lot out of this book. He looks at toxic shame and how the nice guy thinks if he can be nice enough, hide his imperfections, more or less be a chameleon, then the nice guy will get his needs met. The author turns the focus on recovery and suggests, taking care of self, spending time alone, journling about your times alone, finding someone to be honest with and much much more. I really hate that I lost my ex girlfriend. I see how I was part of the problem. Then again, if she wouldn't have broke up with me and used total NC with me for 3 months, I never would have found out how sick I am, was and can be.
Having a good evening. Even though I have a lot of school stress, and had a long 15 hour day, I was able to find some joy. Thanks Hp and this site for the process.
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Post by Freetolive on Jul 17, 2011 18:46:44 GMT -8
I just had an eye opening experience. A lot of stuff I've done over my lifetime and in past relationship has done nothing more than created more shame. It's like I've done behaviors that I know where wrong, but I was to blind to see i was furthering the shame in me. Living a life of continued shame. Well it's time to stop the unhealthy BS.
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Post by sunshine on Sept 19, 2011 18:40:01 GMT -8
freetolive and liveandlearn: I ran accross this thread because I've recently realized how much toxic shame I carry around. I too have noticed how I isolate myself and I am living a live of creating more shame. I read Healing The Shame That Binds You and plan to buy How to Win Friends and Influence People this weekend.
How has your progress been with the same-reduction work? I have noticed the more I work at healing my shame....I almost feel worse about myself. Maybe because I am focusing on my painful feelings so much. Have you experienced feeling worse? Lately I have felt shame about everything, but mainly at work. I feel like I'm not good enough at all.
I have been saying positive affirmations, but deep, deep down inside myself, I don't believe them.
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Post by Loving My Life on Sept 20, 2011 4:45:54 GMT -8
Sun, that makes me sad to read that you dont believe your positive affirmations about yourself, we all have good assets in us. so keep reading books, and keep saying your affirmations about yourself, and do aleast one good thing for yourself a day. you will at some point start believing in yourself. do you have any local al-anon or co-dependent mtgs that you can attend a few times a week? also do gratitude list...i believe you you are a good person. keep coming back, you are worth it.
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Post by sunshine on Sept 20, 2011 4:54:30 GMT -8
Hi Carolyn, I do have an Al-Anon meeting I attend at least twice a week. I am fairly new to it, so maybe I haven't given it enough time. I just find myself saying the affirmations, but not really feeling like what I am saying is true.
I can feel my shame affecting me mostly at work - I am passed over for promotions, I am unable to confront people in an assertive way and I feel like I am not valuable. Sadly, I am a doormat (I hate admitting that!). I am really working towards feeling more confident at work and I am not sure I am making much progress.
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Post by Loving My Life on Sept 20, 2011 5:05:24 GMT -8
Sun, if we have been treated badly for so long and allowed people to treat us like a doormat also, it does take time for the changes to happen in our life. But we do have to keep moving in the right direction for our recovery. And maybe it is not time for the promotion yet, dont automatically think something is wrong with you, maybe your HP has something in store for you down the road. Keep going to your meetings and sharing your progress here. dont give up before the miracle happens. it has only been a little while, so keep coming back, you are worth it. have a great day. ;-)
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Post by Healing Ku'uipo on Sept 20, 2011 18:08:16 GMT -8
It takes time to re wire our brains. I have heard it suggested that when you do an affermation and get a negetive response write it out. Your foundational belief system and a new set of beliefs are at a tug of war. Dont let go of the rope! But try to Listen and Understand what your negetive self thoughts are saying. They will show you what your core beliefs are. Beliefs: If they are Loving and Kind keep them, if they are shaming and mean, change them. It takes time. Be kind to yourself, your worth it.
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Post by smbeets on Sept 20, 2011 19:09:36 GMT -8
We are all sharing this wonderful journey of healing and transformation, glad you are all here, great topic.
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Post by Freetolive on Sept 21, 2011 2:21:00 GMT -8
Thanks for keeping this going. It takes time for us to rewire our brains. I like that statement. I'm coming to see that. So I try and practice love and patience with myself. It's not always easy, but I must push forward.
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Post by smbeets on Sept 21, 2011 9:19:03 GMT -8
John Bradshaw is a SAINT! His work has helped me so much.
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Post by blondeweaver on Sept 21, 2011 19:49:56 GMT -8
I'm new to this awesome sight, but not a newcomer in recovery... I've been a recovering, addict alcoholic for many yrs. Also aware of Bradshaws literary works, as I was in a study group in the 90s..It helped me..But it took much practise, Sorta like Fake it til You make it. Sometimes The littlist things will trigger shame, old beliefs, old words that were told me at a young age "you're no good, you're crazy, you belong in the bughouse" then I need to tell myself, that I am good, and that I do matter...hugs to you, us all that have, and still do suffer with toxic shame...
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Post by Loving My Life on Sept 22, 2011 3:18:43 GMT -8
blondeweaver, welcome to LAA, you have taken a good 1st step in your recovery from love addiction, you can go to the Newcomers Thread and tell us your story, how you got here, and also list your short term goals. Remember you are not alone, we have all been where you are. Please keep posting and sharing, there is alot of support on this forum. Glad you are here, Keep it simple, One day @ a time. Welcome ;-)
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Post by sunshine on Sept 22, 2011 4:43:45 GMT -8
Welcome blondweaver! I'm glad you are here and found this website
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Post by marymas on Sept 22, 2011 5:14:56 GMT -8
I can relate to Wingz comment about "nice guys" who later show themselves to be very different. I dated a guy who was so nice and wonderful I thought that God had sent him to me. Later I found out how very damaged he really is. He verbally abused me, was unavailable, unreliable, and even hacked into my email TWICE. My question is this: Do these men who act so nice to counteract the belief that they are bad KNOW what they're doing? Do they consciously think they're bad? If they knew they had this shame one would think they'd find ways to get better. Do they think that being nice, helping others will "fix" themselves?
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Post by Loving My Life on Sept 22, 2011 5:24:22 GMT -8
marymas, being nice geniunely and from the heart, and being a fake nice are too different things. fake nice is only manipulators to get what they want from people. some people just dont care how they treat others, they only want to use you and if they cant get something from you they have no more use for you. when we are unhealthly, we attract unhealthy people. I see that myself now after almost 3 months, my poa never loved me, only what i did for him, use and mentally abuse me. we are so much better than that. we are beautiful on the inside and out. hope this helps you. ;-)
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Post by Susan Peabody on Sept 22, 2011 13:36:53 GMT -8
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