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Post by nvr2late on Aug 10, 2011 9:13:57 GMT -8
Lately I've been thinking about how attached I have stayed (in my head) with several Exes.
When I was married to Husband #2, I frequently dreamt about and thought "what if" thoughts about a man (call him L) I met at age 14, my first love. I even contacted "L" after my divorce and we met again for a weekend to see if there was still something, but there was nothing. We went our separate ways. I never really got over him though.
I lived with a guy before I met my current husband (he's Ex #3 as of today, let's call him T.) and in addition to keeping a lot of thoughts in my heart and dreaming about him, (we'll call him "P") I did the same about Husband #2.
In fact, I saw H#2 last summer at a class reunion and I thought my head and heart would explode. We did get a chance to talk briefly but I had to be careful because his wife, the woman he left me for, is insanely jealous even here, 30 yrs later.
I also hoped and watched in vain the entire time I was home for "P". Didn't see him, but saw his son and DIL. Talked to them some and even tried looking him up on FB when I got home. Did a lot of pining and "what iffing" about "P", too.
Does this sound like I've been a torchbearer? There really haven't been any other men that I've done this with.
I've developed several very short-term crushes over the years, but nothing serious, nobody ever knew about them and they all ended sort of naturally.
I used to justify this fantasizing and pining for the past because I was so unhappy in my marriage to T. Sort of a crying over spilled milk reaction, I thought. "If I'd only known then what I know now" if that makes sense.
I'm just wondering what your thoughts would be on this?
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 12, 2011 2:25:49 GMT -8
It sounds like you have some degree of torchbearing, but the question is whether it is moderate or severe torchbearing? How much do those people occupy your thoughts? How much do your thoughts of that person (s) control or influence your behavior?
My own assessment (and only you really know) is that its a moderate form of torchbearing.
I found that after my last serious episode of torchbearing (which was several times more serious than the one I have now), I really got over and stopped thinking about that person when I was happy about the direction my life was moving in again. I recognized that I could not have been where I was, if I had actually been successful in being with the object of my torchbearing. So when I felt satisfied with life, I mostly forgot her.
You mentioned that you are just now divorcing, and I guess you may have separated with hour husband in the fairly recent past. So its not really surprising that at this time, when you haven't been able to re-build a new life, that you have some fantasies about past partners, and think "what if?" When you get moving again, it may diminish, but its always something to watch out for.
"The dream" is very seductive, because we can construct any dream we want. We can project anything onto those past lovers and think that they could have been "the dream relationship". But it sounds like you have enough experience, to know that real relationships are far more mundane, sometimes boring, and fraught with challenges. Real relationships are no match for the dream, except for one thing: they're real!
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 12, 2011 14:12:13 GMT -8
Thanks for posting, bringerlight.
To give more perspective, I'm talking a span of time going back to about 1975-77 to now.
During the time I was with Husband #2, (7+ yrs) I occasionally pined for, missed and fantasized about the lost BF from my teen years. The one called "L" whom I met up with later.
During my third marriage (the one just ended), I occasionally pined for, missed and fantasized about Ex-BF "P" AND Husband #2, having gotten BF "L" out of my system ;D You getting this down? LOL.
Anyway, my third marriage ended this week, just a couple months short of 23 yrs.
And I do I see that this was indeed a pattern of fantasizing for me in the past.
More to the point, in particular Husband #2 was cold, abusive (mentally), an alcoholic and cheated on me. So don't ask what the attraction in my head was about. Well ok...he did look a little like a cross between Elvis and Johnny Depp, if you must know ;D
Right now, I'm not pining for, missing or fantasizing about anyone, least of all the two husbands. I actually don't want any man in my life at this point. I shut down my online dating profile (did that a few weeks ago) and I feel that is THE LAST THING ON EARTH I need to deal with at this time in my life.
I dabbled with it, yes. In true RA fashion, I believed I needed to "get back on the horse that threw me" and date again ASAP.
YUCK.
I wouldn't trust ME in a relationship as far as I could throw me. Not right now.
But anyway, I haven't been able to find much info on Torchbearing, and was just ruminating if this might be part of the issues I might need to look at harder for myself. And given the propensity I have for Euphoric Recall/Addiction Amnesia, I want to be more aware.
Does that clarify things a bit?
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 13, 2011 11:34:04 GMT -8
Ah ha! Found the answer! By that criteria, I am also a TB. Nice to learn about another layer on the old onion. I guess  |
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 14, 2011 1:11:54 GMT -8
Nvr2late,
That is a very interesting quote: from Butterfly Girl no less.
Interesting to me cause according to that definition i would not currently be a torchbearer, but am sometimes an obsessed love addict. Because my torchbearing does not go on for years and years.
Actually I have been going over my life history, considering it all in sequence, and I observed that my torchbearing has actually been declining over the years. The worst years for me were from my last year in high school to about 1 year after I finished my Bachelor's degree. A total of about 5 1/2 to 6 years. During that time I did not have a single girlfriend, although I had close female friends and some sexual encounters. That was also when my addiction to pot started and got really bad.
After that 6 years, I got into a relationship with one of my exes, which lasted for a long time and is still the best/ healthiest relationship I have ever been in. After that I went abroad and have still been abroad all these years. The excitement of traveling kept my mind off women for the most part, although I still felt intensely lonely sometimes and longed for someone. Then when I settled in this country it was so easy to find a girlfriend, or at least instant sexual contact, which converted me from someone who was longing for women all the time, to someone who was "on top of my game". I became like a dominant personality, someone who worked hard and just kept women as props for gratification when I needed a little affection, touch, or sex (note that for me being touched and having someone hold me is just as important as sex). Most of the women I met and had flings with, I was not serious about them because my rational mind told me that I didn't want to be with them long term.
Then about 5 years ago I met this one woman- she was amazing. She was kind of like my 2nd girlfriend reincarnated. She was incredibly intelligent, attractive, nice, and popular. She was also into my drug of choice. All my desires for a long term relationship, for a real connection, to have kids, came rushing back and I projected it all onto her. I paid her too much attention, called/ texted/skyped too much and became fawning, even submissive. She also had a boyfriend at the time, so she wasn't to happy about my attention (as she wanted to be faithful). She broke up with her boyfriend later, but it was too late- she was already turned off by me.
That was a very bad torchbearing incident, but I basically forgot about her by about one year after I no longer saw her (when my graduate studies were over and we both went on to new lives).
So it sounds like you don't think you are currently a torchbearer. But its good to be aware of it because its something someone can always fall back into if they're not vigilant. For me, and now recognizing my life history, I know I must be very careful with myself.
You're right, torchbearing does not seem to be well documented, although I bet it is a really common problem. I bet there are many, many people with this problem but for some reason the literature on it is not well- developed.
Its funny I feel like recently I am getting people in my life who are like "mirrors". I have one friend in my life who was my lover for a few days a few months ago. I was just chatting with her Friday night and I realized she is really a torchbearer. Her scenario, in short, is: 1) she never goes out to meet men because she works all the time and lives in a quiet area far away from the city center. 2) She is so deep into Catholic morality, even at 32 years old, that she is terrified of having sex with someone who will not eventually be her "one" (Mr. Right). 3) She doesn't trust any men because she thinks all they really want is sex. Because she's so afraid of sex she can never take a chance with any man because she doesn't trust them to be sincere. 4) Her family demands that she give a major part of her earnings to them, which she does even though they are using her, which leaves her with no money to go out and enjoy life, or meet someone, or travel to meet me, even though I live just a few hours away. She still wants me to go and live with/ spend time with her there, but am not interested because I want to have my own life where I live now.
So here is this gorgeous woman (very beautiful), who stays at home alone every night, wishing, praying to God that "Mr. Right" will come into her life. But she never goes out and has no one in her life that is a possible partner. To me on the outside, I can see it is a lost cause, but she still persists in thinking that some man is going to "find her", and save her, like sleeping beauty, or the princess saved by the prince...
Anyway, its interesting for me because she is like a "mirror" of myself....
Nvr2late, it sounds like you have a good handle on your difficulties and probably you will avoid falling in to the torchbearing trap again.
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 14, 2011 9:28:29 GMT -8
Hi Bringerlight! I haven't seen indications in your posting that you are really much of a TB, but it's always good to take a closer look, just in case  I believe I have a ways to go to be healed of this part of my LA. But seeing it, and working on my recovery is going to bring me through it, I have no doubt. To the extent that I have been able to correct my hind-sight with respect to prior dysfunctional relationships, I am not currently bearing a torch for anyone. Of the 4 notable men I've done this with, 2 were healthy relationships, 2 were not. I have no idea what to do with that information ;D One thing for sure about Torchbearing, it's a trick of the mind to take the focus off me and onto someone else. And that's anti-recovery  I'm so grateful for this place and for my S-Anon group. It's like the light bulb moments never stop. |
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Post by Loving My Life on Aug 14, 2011 9:37:13 GMT -8
Nvr2late, great insight on your, YOUR progress. Your doing the footwork, and you will get the rewards. We are a work in progress.
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 14, 2011 10:09:34 GMT -8
Thanks carolync92. As of yesterday, I have a new sponsor in my S-Anon group and she's going to help me stay even more focused on my own work. Still, I enjoy the latitude we have here to explore other literature and discuss things pertaining to our recovery work.
I am afraid I'll flatten my poor sponsor with questions and issues if I let it all rip, LOL!
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 15, 2011 7:01:18 GMT -8
Nvr2late,
Well, I guess that TB means torchbearer, and I'm really surprised that you don't think that I'm a TB. So that really threw me for a loop. Then what am I?, I'm asking. OLA, ALA, or avoidant?
I just know that something is not working out, if we take the long view of my life. I've described it in detail, so you already know. I think it may just come down to watching myself so I don't get too involved emotionally with one person before I even have any relationship with them. And also, as some of you suggested, working on what image I project to other people, especially when I'm interested in someone. And also knowing when to let go and then just doing it.
From what you say it sounds like you have a good handle on your own issues and are progressing well with it...
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 15, 2011 13:55:02 GMT -8
bringerlight: Yep. TB, shorthand for torchbearer. Keep in mind, I'm just finding out what they are, too! But just going by what you said here: combined with reading Butterflygirl's description. If I may be honest, today I'm feeling too emotionally wrung out to try and help you figure it out. I'm sorry I'm sure a day or two I'll be back to my old chipper energetic self. And thank you for the encouragement. I need it today.
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 16, 2011 8:40:50 GMT -8
No worries Nvr2late! I understand, but its good that you gave me that feedback or then I would probably not have questioned that I am a TB.
You're not responsible for me, I am. I have been reading the typology again and I still can't figure out really what I am. Maybe I am not any of them.
Anyway, I'll be working on trying to figure it out, as I am sure you will be continuing with your own inner work! Don't worry and stick with it!
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Post by overcomer on Aug 16, 2011 14:05:36 GMT -8
I think it does not matter what kind of love addict we are as they say we can switch from one kind to another, we can be a combination or whatever. What counts is to stop avoiding ourselves so we don't have to have an addiction to substitute for our genuine needs.
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 16, 2011 14:08:57 GMT -8
That's a good point NC. I haven't seen distinctions made in most of the other reading I've done, only here.
While it's helpful, and even quite interesting, I agree that spending a lot of time pigeon-holing ourselves can distract from the time spent just working our steps and taking care of ourselves.
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 17, 2011 2:39:24 GMT -8
NCLet God,
I appreciate your comment, but I think its important to get a correct diagnosis in order to pursue the proper solution. In fact, I'm not even sure I am an LA. I have reviewed all the types and none of them seem to fit exactly, although the closest are all in the ALA category, especially torchbearing and romance addict.
Tonight I'm going to write down the symptoms to try to see if I can get an overall better handle on what the problem is.
But overall I agree with you its important to stop avoiding the self. It would be wrong for me to just keep trying the same old stuff if its obviously not working.
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Post by overcomer on Aug 17, 2011 6:27:33 GMT -8
Right! It's important to know if we are an addict or not.
Honestly since you asked for comment, if you continue pursuing or fantasizing w/ that UNavailable woman at the bar then you have an issue too w/ "love addiction". That woman in the bar who is probably a seductive withholder and torchbearer is not really healthy as you have described so seeking or wanting someone like her makes it an unhealthy choice.
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 17, 2011 6:37:31 GMT -8
To add to this, I think many of us are a patchwork quilt of LA characteristics. But since the same 12 Steps work for all of us, and since the remedies generally tend to be similar for most of us, I think that's why each of us can glean something helpful from the sharing we all do.
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 17, 2011 7:00:47 GMT -8
NCLetGod,
I don't want to reply to your comment because I don't want to engage in divisive debates. Good luck with your own personal search.
Yes Nvr2late, I for one have been able to learn something from other's experiences. And I enjoy the interaction with other people on the board! I appreciate your comments and helpfulness!
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 17, 2011 7:06:39 GMT -8
Here's a good reference post by LJ. Just randomly found it while searching for more information on situational narcissists.
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Post by overcomer on Aug 17, 2011 9:54:31 GMT -8
bringerlight: Lol! Wow! To admit it is a good indication of recovery journey! 
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Post by overcomer on Aug 17, 2011 10:06:56 GMT -8
PS: Bringerlight, from my 1st day here I already knew and admitted that I was a seductive withholder, run-away bride w/ men, although they are healthy, attractive, big-time, and all. It's my fault that what has happened has happened.
Whereas w/ best friends, I was "obsessive" or RA about it bec of my inner child's "imago" sis. It's plain and simple. So after the 12 steps I'm focusing in recovery tools and not anymore on personal search. Thank you! :-)
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 17, 2011 19:45:51 GMT -8
NCLet God,
Actually originally I wrote "good luck in your own recovery", but I decided to edit it because I thought it sounded like "you are in recovery but I'm not", which sounds like a jab. And I knew you would probably not respond well to that. But I recognize that you are in recovery. I can see that.
Your second comment: interesting. What do you mean by "run-away bride"? You mean you were engaged to be married and then you ran away? Literally ran off?
What does it mean "my inner child's 'imago' sis"? Like a second inner child? It may be that as you say, I am getting the "best friend" version of my PoA, since I am an important friend to her.
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Post by overcomer on Aug 18, 2011 13:40:18 GMT -8
It's OK. I understand. No problem! :-) I "disappeared" after we've made our wedding plans. I got engaged and did the same thing at least 3 times. Imago is like something we are attached or look up to (image) during our childhood. There's an explanation written on this board... Yes perhaps you are like a best friend imago to her. |
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 18, 2011 19:29:20 GMT -8
Wow, that is amazing. I can't believe you did that. It's also pretty scary because at my age it would be devastating if something like that happened to me. Definitely an important warning.
But its good that now you re taking responsibility for your recovery because, not only are you healing yourself (which is good for you), but you are also preventing others from being hurt by actions you might have taken in an "untreated" condition.
For me, I think its important that I take care of my problems because I can be more happy and also I can be a good partner to someone and make someone else happy through a good relationship. If I did nothing it would sort of be like "a waste of a good man".
Just out of curiosity (if you are willing to share), what happened to you in your childhood or more recent experiences which led you to have SW tendencies?
I'll look up the meaning of "imago"...
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Post by Loving My Life on Aug 19, 2011 5:23:05 GMT -8
bringerlight, are you working the steps yet? or just sizing everyone up, too keep the focus off of your issues? If you are focused on other problems, it keep you from having too look @ yourself.
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Post by overcomer on Aug 19, 2011 9:43:32 GMT -8
bringerlight: "Just out of curiosity (if you are willing to share), what happened to you in your childhood or more recent experiences which led you to have SW tendencies?" I grew up seeing many broken-hearted young single moms who did not even reach college and their children are not well-taken care of. That's why I totally avoided falling in love, getting broken-hearted, or to have a child abandoned by his/her father...So I turned to friendship instead and in nurturing it. But what I did not know is that friendship is like any other relationship that comes and goes and can be a fantasy, can lead to addiction and to being broken-hearted. Thank you for your words and for sharing. I can see that you are improving! Keep it up! :-)
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Post by bringerlight on Aug 23, 2011 8:44:26 GMT -8
Interesting that this person Overcomer let God is now a guest.
Anyway, thanks for your reply and interesting to hear. Amazing that something as simple as that could lead to someone becoming a seductive withholder.
Well, we all hijacked Nvr2late's post! Better to get back to our own posts!
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Post by nvr2late on Aug 23, 2011 9:16:36 GMT -8
Don't worry!  I will undoubtedly hijack someone else's too one of these days. It doesn't bother me and I find the dialogue interesting. |
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Post by Violet Fire on Sept 3, 2013 18:20:24 GMT -8
New to this, but here goes: 8 years sober in AA (so yes, I'm giving myself guff about "knowing better" and shoulding all over myself). I met someone at one of my home groups, and he was a deliciously handsome and intoxicatingly flirtatious newcomer. He'd come in for a meeting as I was leaving another and would chat me up. "You look beautiful as always"..."you smell like heaven"...I could go on. I accepted it, flirted harmlessly, left and stayed away. Now he's got a few years sober and single again. I'm is single too at this moment. I go to a meeting that he goes to and we fellowship in a group, but now after all of this intrigue for years...loose and passing but still, he's gone high and mighty about how he won't date women in the rooms. I respect his program and the need to keep his sobriety separate from the rest of his life, but I've got a resentment brewing because I feel led on and nowwwww I'm obsessed. And I'm not talking "omg there he is, vapors and hairtoss" variety. Googling (hello, anonymity!), FB creeping, felloshippng with agenda a hopping mad if I don't get my hit. He's stopped doing it so brazenly, but there's an undercurrent of...something. I run it past my sponsor all the time who goes to the same meeting and sees it. It's been confirmed.
I don't want to date this person. He's clearly got some stuff to work out and I may have just caught some Pre-boundary antics and now he's trying to be better and not act out in that way. I think I'm going to go to another meeting for a bit and starve this thing. By obsession has a hint of anger to it now. My fantasies vary from a torrid affair to conjugal bliss, but I'm embarrassed by my torch carrying. I haven't came clean with my sponsor on the cyber creeping.
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Post by Loving My Life on Sept 4, 2013 5:33:32 GMT -8
Welcome Violet, When you can will you go to the Newcomers thread and post some of your Love Addiction story with us, and let us know what your recovery goals are? We are all glad you are here.
Congratulations on your 8 years of sobriety, I have 4 years myself, so I am just going to give my opinion on relationships in the rooms of AA, you mentioned you were already sober when this guy came into AA, right? And you know that as we go along in our sobriety and we get some time under our belt, we change, and change is ok. So if I was you I would start going to other meeting for awhile, and I would also stop the cyber stalking, this is not helping you, it is only causing yourself more pain, block him on facebook and you will not be able to see what he is doing.
And this would be a good time for you to do a mini 4th step on why are you angry? You know the drill when something is upsetting us about another person, there is something in us as well. Sorry if you did not want to hear this.
Again welcome, we are all glad you are here, you will find a lot of support and knowledge on this forum.
Keep coming back
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Post by Violet Fire on Sept 4, 2013 19:32:56 GMT -8
Thanks for the encouragement Loving! Yes, I had 5 years when he came in. Now I have 8 and he has 3. I did a mini 4th about it a while ago and I know my pride and sense of attractiveness, and my part is that I have expectations that were not agreed upon. I recognize that this is my stuff and absolutely not his. But I can do all the mini 4th's in the world, but if I don't change my behavior it's just words on a page. I certainly changed...but this is very old behavior indeed which is why I'm surprised by it, surprised enough to write on a forum.
I'll still go to the group to go to a meeting with my sponsor because we have a weekly date, but he doesn't come on that day so I think I'll be fine there. But not going to the meeting I know I'll see him at.
VF
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I will undoubtedly hijack someone else's too one of these days. It doesn't bother me and I find the dialogue interesting.
