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Post by looking4direction on Nov 25, 2011 17:37:13 GMT -8
Hello.
I am Carol and a love-fantasy/romance/love addict, codependent, torchbearer.
I have a question.
My present situation.
I have a limerence toward a man who isn't even alive right now, but he was a celebrity.
I have been counseled that because he's dead, this isn't an issue.
However, when I did read his book (he had a way of writing that made me feel as though I were with him) I began to be aware of a very strong feeling toward him (thought at first it was just harmless crush) that's lasted for years, off an on.
Now, again, it's very very strong and consuming.
I had found out he was dead after I "fell in love" with him.
The fact that he is dead does NOT help me get over it.
I still obsessively fantasize about him and I am now looking at the stories about "torchbearing" because I think I am loving a man that I cannot ever have and it's not going away.
And I know that even if he were alive and even if I had met him, he had a gf and he would have never loved me back.
I would like to know what you guys think.
Carol
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Post by Havefaith on Nov 25, 2011 19:50:22 GMT -8
This is a tough situation and I think therapy is in order.
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Post by lacypooh on Nov 25, 2011 20:30:44 GMT -8
This is a great board to come, post, read and learn, and I am sure you will find helpful tools here, but I do also agree with seeing a therapist. Loving a man who is dead is an issue if it is consuming your life the way you described it here. Have you done any background work on why you are attracted to unavailable men? Possible something from your childhood that your are replaying out. That's why I recommend therapy, but I must admit I have uncovered some pretty heavy things about myself and my childhood without going to one yet.
But the point I'm trying to make is that it is something that you should work on and this is a great place to start.
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Post by Jacarandagirl on Nov 26, 2011 1:20:09 GMT -8
I think there is hope for you if you really want to heal yourself from this fruitless obsession. Know that this torchbearing is your way of completely avoiding yourself and your underlying feelings about yourself. That's it- that's all it is. Nothing about the intensity makes it truer, more special or more than that in any way. It is addiction, just not to a drug, it's to a person. But the real addiction is to avoiding our feelings.
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Post by person on Nov 26, 2011 13:30:09 GMT -8
I think you need to seek a professional help.
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Post by Susan Peabody on Nov 26, 2011 19:04:39 GMT -8
You are projecting your Imago on to this man. All love addiction is projection based. I still love my partner and she is dead. This is normal in my opinion.
If it interferes with your life and you think this infatuation (loving someone you don't know) has become an addiction, then you are in the right place to work through this issue. Read more about the Torchbearer.
In general Torchbearers are avoiding emotional intimacy by projecting on to someone who is unavailable. Torchbearers want our POAs to be perfect so we like fantasies better than real life people. It can be just an escape or a way to stay ambivalent our of fear.
Welcome.
Therapy is good for recovery, but it does not cure this kind of love addiction. For now look for the link on this board about transferring your infatuation to a "perfect" deity and then later a real person. It takes time but loving a deity (Christ is a common deity) is a little bit more socially acceptable than loving a dead person. Even then people judge you. I shared to a group my passion for God and was accused of wanting to be a nun. So what's wrong with that I said. Nun's are not necessarily running from life. Their bliss is just God.
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Post by looking4direction on Nov 26, 2011 19:19:20 GMT -8
I *am* in therapy.
However, I get even more out of groups like this.
Lots of insight.
Not just talking to someone who studies this.
thanks,
Carol
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Post by looking4direction on Nov 26, 2011 19:22:12 GMT -8
I really appreciate the post that tells me that a lot of it is inside work and that a therapist can't cure me.
I dont want people on here encouraging me to alwyas look to professionals. They have their place, but in my experience, a therapist can be another hook.
i am not against therapy, just wnat to be encouraged to do the work and process things.
Carol
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Post by looking4direction on Nov 26, 2011 19:24:56 GMT -8
I agree that I probably am avoiding something by doing this torchbearing thing.
And I know that it's a lot of stuff unresolved from childhood.
I appreciate you all. I know you mean well and I did get a lot out of the replies.
Carol
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Post by Havefaith on Nov 26, 2011 19:39:59 GMT -8
No, a therapist isn't the magic bullet, this I know. But -- They facilitate the work and the processing that needs to be done to get us to a better place. My therapist is not my 'cure' -- but she is the facilitator that guides me down the path of recovery and encourages me to stay on it.
HaveFaith
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Post by lacypooh on Nov 26, 2011 20:03:41 GMT -8
Carol,
As I mentioned, I haven't sought out the help of a therapist yet and I've grown a lot from being on this board for a year, reading books, journaling and turning to my HP. I think there are many ways outside of therapy to heal and grow, and even with a therapist we have to do the work. But you mentioned you are seeing a therapist so in coming here I'm sure you'll find other techniques that will help.
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Post by looking4direction on Nov 26, 2011 20:47:52 GMT -8
thanks.
Wingz, I do talk to my expert, but I do the work. I do need some counseling, but he is not the only and greatest source. I used him for an aid. And I see a nurse every week; trying to establish a relationship with her. She monitors my symptoms, but my expert/specialist is the one I really turn to for this kind of thing.
My nures helps me with symptom management.
The expert helps me with the addiction.
And everyting else depends on me and on these forums/sites/groups.
Carol
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Post by lacypooh on Nov 26, 2011 21:32:43 GMT -8
Carol, I hope you don't think I'm judging you. I've done way too many things in the name of LA to be judging your choice of recovery. I don't think there's a cure, or one source of recovery, rather therapy or these boards or whatever, it's a personal choice and I applaud you on whatever path you wish to take.
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Post by margot on Nov 27, 2011 22:09:35 GMT -8
Carol.........you are not alone.
I've carried a torch for someone for over 40 years............I have no idea whether he's physically dead or not and it doesn't matter. Over the years every time a man or someone else would berate me or hurt me, I would be comforted by thinking of this man, knowing that he loved me and would never treat me bad. He was a secret comfort.
It was a fantasy but during those very hard times it helped. I gave him up recently and did have to go thru a grief period.......including feeling all alone.
There was a period in my life (1 year) when I did have a close relationship with the HP we can call God for lack of a better understood word. It was mental and spiritual and I was in constant contact...........it was very good. I was mostly at peace but after a while I began to desire the company of beings like me...........human........here on earth. I guess that's normal to want to be around others like us. At this time I would like to have the close God relationship as well as human relationships. Anyway I'm getting off the topic.
Just wanted you to know that someone here has had similar to your stated experience and I don't think it's strange. Also, I happen to think that when picking a therapist you must listen to yourself and be very, very careful who you trust yourself with and then when you find a good, kind person..............well it can be great to have someone like that to talk with.
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Post by looking4direction on Nov 27, 2011 22:16:48 GMT -8
Wingz, I don't feel you are judging me.
The only thing I have an issue with is people so often in my life have referred me to therapy and I have been in therapy for this before and for me it's just more dependency. I don't feel you did that. I feel you encouraged me to find my way.
So often, unless it's a therapist out of pocket who really understands this addiction (at least in my own experience) therapists have not validated this issue. I have been in mental health clinics and in hospitals and have even tried to address love dependency and all they've done is medicate me or counsel me in such a way where i did not feel I had any authenticity or freedom.
For the first time now I am speaking of myself and for myself.
I really know what's going on.
I need to find Carol.
I need to learn to love myself the way my parental figures should have loved me.
then I will not have to love others or be loved by others in this dysfunctional, addictive manner.
thanks, everyone for your help.
I will read and relate.
Carol
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Post by lacypooh on Nov 27, 2011 22:44:30 GMT -8
I understand. For my own journey I've had the most revelation just from sharing things here. Just sharing my pain has been therapeutic and helps me feel work out some things. If you are looking for a place to help you work through things then this is a good place to start. Have you already done the steps or any inner child work? There are some great books listed on the board. I personally like work books with exercises. I'm sure you will find the way to loving Carol.
One thing I did was make a list of things I liked about myself , activities I liked to do, and places I liked to go. I am also a torch bearer and I know the agony----it makes accepting reality really difficult, but not impossible.
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Post by LovelyJune on Nov 28, 2011 4:30:16 GMT -8
Hey Carol, And welcome! As a writer, I was deeply affected and "in love with" Arthur Rimbaud and then Henry Miller (among a few others). Their writings struck a chord in me so intense that I fell in love and remained in fantasy and love with them for many years. They are both, for those who don't know, long since dead. I can be the same with places too and generations (the roaring 20's, the Lost Generation, Paris, the South of Spain). I think this is what art and culture does to us. It feeds us with fantasy and emotion, it strikes a chord in us. It allows us to recognize our deepest selves. Perhaps you need to look into this person's writing a bit more (what is he famous for?) Are you in love with the man or his IDEAS. A good way around this is to channel your *addiction* or obsession for him into a healthier pattern of behavior--for example, write a biography on him. You probably know more than any expert! This idea is how heathy addictions manifest themselves and what a healthy person might do--create something positive from their thoughts. The more resourceful you are with your love addiction, the more you are able to control it (instead of it controlling you), the better. PS. I never really did the 12-Steps, and I never really stuck to therapy. You can heal in your OWN way. Just don't give up trying new methods or ideas of not only searching for answers, but taking action.  |
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Post by Healing Ku'uipo on Nov 28, 2011 5:25:25 GMT -8
Welcome L4D,
After reading your post I was reminded that my first 'Love" was with Franz Kafka, I didnt just relate to his books I imagined he was my Soul Mate. Even did a past life regression at 18 and it went right to him, I was wrapped in his story for years..it was like a life raft. I remember telling people stories about him and our connection.
I look at that now and think 'Holy Smokes!' I was really caught up and overwhelmed.
I was also in so much trauma and drama and ptsd that I just couldnt deal with at the time...so I cut myself a break.
I'm thinking the more you grow and understand and love yourself the less of a hold this 'inner relationship' you are having will mean.
Find a connection with your Higher Power. Be gentle with yourself.
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Post by margot on Nov 28, 2011 8:27:00 GMT -8
Very well stated LJ. You always come thru with a wealth of wisdom and encouraging motivation!
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Post by Susan Peabody on Nov 28, 2011 15:23:49 GMT -8
From one torchbearer to another. . .
20 years (high school crush).
20 years (the man who introduced me to AA)
7 years (therapist).
The time is getting shorter. I will always be a Torchbearer. I just put it all on the back burner.
I still love my last partner who committed suicide. But I also love God and Frank. Love has taken on many meanings right now.
What has changed? The love I feel does not hurt.[/i] My Fairy Family [/color]
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Post by Susan Peabody on Nov 28, 2011 15:53:08 GMT -8
From Susan Someone on this thread is being too adament. Torchbearing may, or may not, be a way of avoiding ourselves. For some people it is and for others it is part of the recovery (transference) of limerence with the POA to something a little healthier. For example. Your POA is beating you. You fantasize about being rescued. You transfer limerence to your phantom lover. After experiencing the love between you and your new lover, you leave your POA because you know what real love is. When you are stable you transfer limerence again to a healthy partner. Some people wade in to recovery and others jump right in. Torchbearing can be a temporary defense mechanism until the person is ready to face their shame demons. Torchbearing can, sometimes, help with withdrawal which causes some people to try to kill themselves. It can be a temporary a form of disassociation. In my case, I could not imagine loving myself, but my sponsor talked me into believing that God loves me. Later I made the transition to loving myself and then my partner. This is the only way I could break the shame that haunted me. I would like to discuss this further. Could someone look carefully at the board for posts about torchbearing and start a thread that lists how it may be a stepping stone in recovery rather than a full addiction. Let's come up with some boundaries for newcomers. What is too much? When is torchbearing an addiction? What are the signs? (I list them in my book in the chapter about fantasizing.) When it it an unhealthy disassociation? When is it a needed disassociation? (ask a therapist) When it is it an needed step in recovery (getting through withdrawal) . . .  ? |
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Post by Healing Ku'uipo on Nov 28, 2011 16:16:23 GMT -8
Susan,
I clearly see how Torchbearing helped me learn what Love is and what my needs were and are. It has been a slow process to where I am today. I have made progress and in my mind my fantasies of healing love have grown.
When I realized how I wanted to love and be loved, and the guy I was torchbearing wasnt going to give it to me, it didnt take away from the fact that I was imagining a new way of loving I had not experienced before.
And that imagining is learning and growing, like a flower bud begining to open.
I still see the isolation of the torchbearing I did.
But I can accept my torchbearing tendensies these days and I commit to being alive now.
I have a lot of food for thought on this topic....
Thank you for your post.
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Post by LovelyJune on Nov 29, 2011 2:33:27 GMT -8
I did not study torchbearing as much as Susan, nor was I torchbearer for more than one five year stint (unless you consider my obsessed love for Paris which still exists!) But I feel Jacaranda is mostly right in the sense that true torchbearing (fantasy) is a way in which we avoid ourselves. But here's the hitch: I do not believe ALL fantasy to be bad. I believe we need some to carry us through our lives. Not just to get us over humps or the next phase of recovery, but we need it as a part of being human. It's when the fantasy (or in this case torchbearing) keeps you from taking right action that it is problematic. If it is not keeping you from right action and living your life, it is thus, a safe form of torchbearing or fantasy. I think it also greatly depends on the object of your fantasy. Is it an unavailable married neighbor down the street? Or is it a country, a famous author or a historical figure that can be transformed into something positive. Lastly, the very notion of torchbearing, from what I know about it, is that it is long lasting. It is not temporary. I think temporary fantasy and visualization, when used to help you overcome a traumatic situation, are good things. But I don't think it's called torchbearing. Just my two cents. |
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Post by lacypooh on Nov 29, 2011 7:45:23 GMT -8
On the subject of torch bearing itself, once I began recovery, it made me feel so "crazy"..I know, the C word is bad. But I was emotionally satisfied with the romances I had going on in my head. How could that possibly be enough to satisfy me when I wasn't getting anything in return , it was completely one sided.
On the other hand, fantasy has always been apart of my life I write plays and short stories, so the ability to fantasize has greatly helped me in this area. And as someone mentioned before, I do think it saved my life many times. Kept me from picking up other bad habits like drugs or alcohol abuse.
I currently don't have any torches still going, but that's only because I transferred the energy to something I'm not even sure is healthy or not, but I often replay the loves scenes from a screen play I wrote. The chemistry between the two main characters is simply amazing, and it truly gives me joy to re- play the scenes of when them hanging out, and how their love develops. Replaying these scenes takes my mind away from thinking about the failed relationships in my life, or replaying negative events from my life over and over again.
So....for me, fantasy and being a torch bearer has been good , and bad. But, I think it's up to the person to decide if it's something destroying their life or aiding it. I personally don't want to be a torch bearer for unavailable men--that destroys my life, but I enjoy being lost in my screen play.
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Post by looking4direction on Nov 29, 2011 23:12:21 GMT -8
thank you everyone for your wonderful insight.
Carol
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Post by looking4direction on Nov 13, 2012 19:57:27 GMT -8
I like the idea of a "transition" thru a fictitous object, then over to a real love, who won't hurt me.
My long term goal is either contented life alone or a good healthy relationship that is not abusive.
thanks again,
Carol
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